Archived Posts » 60,595,333
would you buy an electric car?
4/13/2012 4:37:04 PM
Assuming the price could get down to a comparable level with a gas econobox. A recent news report on fords new electric focus ($40k) got me to thinking about my day to day driving habits and how I could get the most out of an EV.
my commute is a whopping 24mi round trip. I spend 10 hours MINIMUM at my workplace wich is 2nd shift at a large steel Fab shop. Meaning there would be nothing preventing me from parking next to one of the hundreds of 110v outlets and letting afco steel pay for my fuel costs.
I've crunched the numbers before and to go from a 17mpg Tundra to the wife's 32mpg scion saves me a whopping $12 a week that the only way for me fundamentally save money on fuel costs would be to eliminate em altogether.
The reason i say all this is I wonder if the EV is failing in the marketplace partially because there are too few consumers like myself who COULD make do with a reduced range for daily use.
my commute is a whopping 24mi round trip. I spend 10 hours MINIMUM at my workplace wich is 2nd shift at a large steel Fab shop. Meaning there would be nothing preventing me from parking next to one of the hundreds of 110v outlets and letting afco steel pay for my fuel costs.
I've crunched the numbers before and to go from a 17mpg Tundra to the wife's 32mpg scion saves me a whopping $12 a week that the only way for me fundamentally save money on fuel costs would be to eliminate em altogether.
The reason i say all this is I wonder if the EV is failing in the marketplace partially because there are too few consumers like myself who COULD make do with a reduced range for daily use.
4/13/2012 4:40:58 PM
At the rate the battery technology is improving, electric motorcycles will become a viable option for commuting within a couple years for me.
4/13/2012 4:44:15 PM
I don't think battery technology is anywhere near mature enough for electric cars. It will take a revolutionary new kind of battery before I will consider an all electric vehicle
4/13/2012 4:52:32 PM
no fucking way.
4/13/2012 4:52:57 PM
No, but if you can make for me an electric motorcycle with a range of 100+ miles that can hit 90+, for the price of a current 600-1000cc bike I will be all over it.
4/13/2012 4:59:27 PM
4/13/2012 5:01:16 PM
Originally Posted By Gyrene84:
No, but if you can make for me an electric motorcycle with a range of 100+ miles that can hit 90+, for the price of a current 600-1000cc bike I will be all over it.
No, but if you can make for me an electric motorcycle with a range of 100+ miles that can hit 90+, for the price of a current 600-1000cc bike I will be all over it.
like a zero s?
On the same suburban driving cycle, last year’s bike squeaked out just 42 miles on a charge; the new machines with the optional pack will do about 114 miles. But just as significantly, performance also has increased, with maximum torque delivered to the rear wheel (and thus acceleration) increased by almost 50 percent; top speed has jumped roughly 20 mph from the mid-sixties to the mid-eighties. This is something you can feel every time you twist the throttle.
4/13/2012 5:03:25 PM
No, I would not. They take too long to recharge, and the amount of batteries I would need would make it cost-prohibitive. I probably wouldn't be buy one even if they were inexpensive. You can have the Gov. give away several thousand dollars to go towards your purchase price, and that's morally reprehensible. I'd much rather see the money (in the private sector preferably) go towards purchasing oil from Canada and/or refining Biodiesel. Vote with your dollars.
The law would.
Meaning there would be nothing preventing me from parking next to one of the hundreds of 110v outlets and letting afco steel pay for my fuel costs.
The law would.
4/13/2012 5:04:44 PM
NO
4/13/2012 5:09:42 PM
Originally Posted By castiel:
I don't think battery technology is anywhere near mature enough for electric cars. It will take a revolutionary new kind of battery before I will consider an all electric vehicle
I don't think battery technology is anywhere near mature enough for electric cars. It will take a revolutionary new kind of battery before I will consider an all electric vehicle
Bingo.
4/13/2012 5:17:42 PM
Until there is a substantial increase in miles per charge, they are not in my future.
4/13/2012 5:50:32 PM
I would LOVE to buy an electric car.
HOWEVER, there are a few glaring problems that are slapping me in the face at the moment.
EV's are really only good at this time for running around town. I commute farther than a pure EV can travel on a charge, so I'd still be stuck with gas for that.
Around town, I'd love to have an EV for groceries, etc.....
The other problem that I have with them is that the price of admission kills any thought of using it to save money. Since it cannot replace a gas car due to the range issue (and I don't want my EV to be a gas hybrid, or any of that bullshit), one would still be required to keep a gas car so that they could travel distances greater than 50 miles round trip/day. That being the case, I'd be interested in the neighborhood of average motorcycle prices (6-10k), as all I would want would be a light, super basic (as in: two seats, steering wheel, radio and whatever bullshit safety equipment that is required these days.
That won't happen, so I won't be buying one. When it does happen, I wouldn't mind using one for those in town errands, but I damn sure wouldn't have it be my only vehicle.
HOWEVER, there are a few glaring problems that are slapping me in the face at the moment.
EV's are really only good at this time for running around town. I commute farther than a pure EV can travel on a charge, so I'd still be stuck with gas for that.
Around town, I'd love to have an EV for groceries, etc.....
The other problem that I have with them is that the price of admission kills any thought of using it to save money. Since it cannot replace a gas car due to the range issue (and I don't want my EV to be a gas hybrid, or any of that bullshit), one would still be required to keep a gas car so that they could travel distances greater than 50 miles round trip/day. That being the case, I'd be interested in the neighborhood of average motorcycle prices (6-10k), as all I would want would be a light, super basic (as in: two seats, steering wheel, radio and whatever bullshit safety equipment that is required these days.
That won't happen, so I won't be buying one. When it does happen, I wouldn't mind using one for those in town errands, but I damn sure wouldn't have it be my only vehicle.
4/13/2012 5:58:16 PM
A reasonably priced one would work for me as a second car.
It would be used to go to work and home. The round trip
is 12 miles and costs me about 3.25 a day in gas. Outside of
a scenario like that I can't see it working good with current
tech.
It would be used to go to work and home. The round trip
is 12 miles and costs me about 3.25 a day in gas. Outside of
a scenario like that I can't see it working good with current
tech.
4/13/2012 6:01:32 PM
Originally Posted By the_great_mantis:
No, I would not. They take too long to recharge, and the amount of batteries I would need would make it cost-prohibitive. I probably wouldn't be buy one even if they were inexpensive. You can have the Gov. give away several thousand dollars to go towards your purchase price, and that's morally reprehensible. I'd much rather see the money (in the private sector preferably) go towards purchasing oil from Canada and/or refining Biodiesel. Vote with your dollars.
The law would.
No, I would not. They take too long to recharge, and the amount of batteries I would need would make it cost-prohibitive. I probably wouldn't be buy one even if they were inexpensive. You can have the Gov. give away several thousand dollars to go towards your purchase price, and that's morally reprehensible. I'd much rather see the money (in the private sector preferably) go towards purchasing oil from Canada and/or refining Biodiesel. Vote with your dollars.
Meaning there would be nothing preventing me from parking next to one of the hundreds of 110v outlets and letting afco steel pay for my fuel costs.
The law would.
Is that the same law that didn't prevent me from running a cord out to my conversion van to run a bathroom heater so it stayed toasty and frost free for my breaks a couple winters back.
If I can rip a large portion of all the taxes I've paid in to the .gov in the form of an EV subsidy ill do so in a heartbeat without a moment of sleep lost.
Reinvestment in the private sector or spent on welfare for intercity single minority mothers its still my taxes getting wasted that would best be spent by ME
4/13/2012 6:02:09 PM
Nope.
4/13/2012 7:46:33 PM
I would if it had a range comparable to a gasoline powered vehicle of the same size and options, with comparable performance, and could be recharged in five minutes.
4/13/2012 7:51:01 PM
If it was comparable to the gas models I would buy one in a heartbeat.
Same longevity/price/at least 150-200 miles per charge
Same longevity/price/at least 150-200 miles per charge
4/13/2012 7:52:05 PM
Of course I would if it had the following stats.
less than $20,000 equipped
range 350 miles.
full charge in 10 minutes
seats 5
has air conditioning
has a 5 star crash rating
and electricity is less than 17 cents per Kwhr.
less than $20,000 equipped
range 350 miles.
full charge in 10 minutes
seats 5
has air conditioning
has a 5 star crash rating
and electricity is less than 17 cents per Kwhr.
4/13/2012 7:59:06 PM
Originally Posted By elray:
no fucking way.
no fucking way.
4/13/2012 8:02:14 PM
4/13/2012 8:10:00 PM
Do any of them have air conditioning yet?
That will severely limit their appeal in Texas.
That will severely limit their appeal in Texas.
4/13/2012 8:10:58 PM
No.
Even if the Battery Technology became advanced enough to make long range travel and fast charging (under 30 minutes) an option, the inherent flaw with electric vehicles still exists.
Our energy infrastructure. It cannot support our current and future energy demands plus those of electric vehicles if widely adopted.
Hydrogen will be the future of automotive propulsion, everything else is a stopgap solution.
Even if the Battery Technology became advanced enough to make long range travel and fast charging (under 30 minutes) an option, the inherent flaw with electric vehicles still exists.
Our energy infrastructure. It cannot support our current and future energy demands plus those of electric vehicles if widely adopted.
Hydrogen will be the future of automotive propulsion, everything else is a stopgap solution.
4/13/2012 8:16:09 PM
Originally Posted By fla556guy:
I would LOVE to buy an electric car.
HOWEVER, there are a few glaring problems that are slapping me in the face at the moment.
EV's are really only good at this time for running around town. I commute farther than a pure EV can travel on a charge, so I'd still be stuck with gas for that.
Around town, I'd love to have an EV for groceries, etc.....
The other problem that I have with them is that the price of admission kills any thought of using it to save money. Since it cannot replace a gas car due to the range issue (and I don't want my EV to be a gas hybrid, or any of that bullshit), one would still be required to keep a gas car so that they could travel distances greater than 50 miles round trip/day. That being the case, I'd be interested in the neighborhood of average motorcycle prices (6-10k), as all I would want would be a light, super basic (as in: two seats, steering wheel, radio and whatever bullshit safety equipment that is required these days.
That won't happen, so I won't be buying one. When it does happen, I wouldn't mind using one for those in town errands, but I damn sure wouldn't have it be my only vehicle.
I would LOVE to buy an electric car.
HOWEVER, there are a few glaring problems that are slapping me in the face at the moment.
EV's are really only good at this time for running around town. I commute farther than a pure EV can travel on a charge, so I'd still be stuck with gas for that.
Around town, I'd love to have an EV for groceries, etc.....
The other problem that I have with them is that the price of admission kills any thought of using it to save money. Since it cannot replace a gas car due to the range issue (and I don't want my EV to be a gas hybrid, or any of that bullshit), one would still be required to keep a gas car so that they could travel distances greater than 50 miles round trip/day. That being the case, I'd be interested in the neighborhood of average motorcycle prices (6-10k), as all I would want would be a light, super basic (as in: two seats, steering wheel, radio and whatever bullshit safety equipment that is required these days.
That won't happen, so I won't be buying one. When it does happen, I wouldn't mind using one for those in town errands, but I damn sure wouldn't have it be my only vehicle.
This pretty much.
I heard a guy on the Phil Valentine show a few weeks ago talking about his truck that has been converted to natural gas, and he had an adapter kit for his house so that he could power his house and fill up his trucks nat. gas tank up from the same source. Now THAT would be ideal.
4/13/2012 8:35:39 PM
Unless they can haul around 2500 lbs. on a daily basis, they would be little more than a weekend toy for me.
4/13/2012 9:23:13 PM
If it had a range of at least 150 miles per charge and cost no more than a gas car, I would get one as a 3rd car to travel to and from work. I'm not going to spend $35k for a small sedan regardless of what propels it.
If the Chevy Volt had a small diesel generator and was around $20k, I would buy one of those. Even though it looks like a Cavileer or Cobolt or whatever the hell they call it now.
If the Chevy Volt had a small diesel generator and was around $20k, I would buy one of those. Even though it looks like a Cavileer or Cobolt or whatever the hell they call it now.
4/13/2012 10:26:21 PM
No. I keep my vehicles 10+ years and current battery tech doesn't last that long.
4/13/2012 10:38:25 PM
NO.
4/14/2012 12:21:21 AM
You would be way ahead with a little Smart car or something cheaper that gets better mileage than electric
4/14/2012 2:02:09 AM
Originally Posted By Krochus:
there are too few consumers like myself who COULD make do with a reduced range for daily use.
there are too few consumers like myself who COULD make do with a reduced range for daily use.
Yeah, EVs don't have the range for everybody, only for about 70% of the population.
Anyway.
Would I buy one? Eh....probably not. I dig the huge torque, and fast acceleration. I dig the silent. The lower moving part count can be a bonus.
The downside? Besides the lack of a universal, rapid-charging standard.... Having to heat the inside of your car with a battery bank, when it's 0F or below would use more power than the driving would. And cut the range down to ridiculous levels.
I have to say, from an economical perspective and a self-sufficiency perspective, the idea of having a cheap electric car, which you can charge at home with cheap solar panels would be a fun day-dream. But, unless our manufacturing technology makes the kind of leaps that would make good science fiction, that's just not going to happen at any reasonable price.
4/14/2012 2:21:32 AM
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
No. I keep my vehicles 10+ years and current battery tech doesn't last that long.
No. I keep my vehicles 10+ years and current battery tech doesn't last that long.
Depending on where you're at, the warranty on the entire hybrid system (including the battery) on a Prius is either 8 or 10 years. Not pro-rated, either. if it fails, you just get a new one.
Besides, add up the cost of 20-50 oil changes over those ten years. And a tranny flush, or a clutch. Timing belt/chain. Plugs. Wires. Filters. Coolant flush. Those things alone would probably put you at least half way toward the cost of a new battery, and if you add in the savings of electric over gasoline, then even having to pay for a replacement battery probably comes out thousands cheaper.
Of course, like I said in a previous post, there are other drawbacks to EV cars that make them unsuitable for many people. But the fact that the batteries eventually die isn't necessarily one of them.
4/14/2012 2:57:14 AM
Originally Posted By GlutealCleft:
Depending on where you're at, the warranty on the entire hybrid system (including the battery) on a Prius is either 8 or 10 years. Not pro-rated, either. if it fails, you just get a new one.
Besides, add up the cost of 20-50 oil changes over those ten years. And a tranny flush, or a clutch. Timing belt/chain. Plugs. Wires. Filters. Coolant flush. Those things alone would probably put you at least half way toward the cost of a new battery, and if you add in the savings of electric over gasoline, then even having to pay for a replacement battery probably comes out thousands cheaper.
Of course, like I said in a previous post, there are other drawbacks to EV cars that make them unsuitable for many people. But the fact that the batteries eventually die isn't necessarily one of them.
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
No. I keep my vehicles 10+ years and current battery tech doesn't last that long.
No. I keep my vehicles 10+ years and current battery tech doesn't last that long.
Depending on where you're at, the warranty on the entire hybrid system (including the battery) on a Prius is either 8 or 10 years. Not pro-rated, either. if it fails, you just get a new one.
Besides, add up the cost of 20-50 oil changes over those ten years. And a tranny flush, or a clutch. Timing belt/chain. Plugs. Wires. Filters. Coolant flush. Those things alone would probably put you at least half way toward the cost of a new battery, and if you add in the savings of electric over gasoline, then even having to pay for a replacement battery probably comes out thousands cheaper.
Of course, like I said in a previous post, there are other drawbacks to EV cars that make them unsuitable for many people. But the fact that the batteries eventually die isn't necessarily one of them.
Depends on how much you drive. For me, 10 years is about 300,000 miles. Since I got my license the day I turned 16, I've put 1,000 miles on a 88 Samurai, 25,000 miles on a 2004 Trailblazer (now that is my DD), 10,000 miles on a 99 Cherokee (my trail rig), 30,000 miles on my father's 06 Cummins, 75,000 miles on my 02 F150 (which I got when I turned 16 and sold 2 months ago)…that was only 4 years and 1 month. Most hybrid batteries have a replacement schedule for every 100,000 miles or so if I remember correctly, not to mention batteries are no longer covered once your warranty is gone.
Would I ever buy an EV? No, I drive too much and too far. Would I ever buy a hybrid? Maybe when hell freezes over. Would I buy a diesel electric? I'd probably sell my soul to get one as long as it's powered by a Cummins or CAT.
4/14/2012 4:46:40 AM
Originally Posted By castiel:
I don't think battery technology is anywhere near mature enough for electric cars. It will take a revolutionary new kind of battery before I will consider an all electric vehicle
I don't think battery technology is anywhere near mature enough for electric cars. It will take a revolutionary new kind of battery before I will consider an all electric vehicle
Funny, several really big companies are selling them or are close to it. Guess they're not ready, huh?
I do concede that it will be nicer as battery technology advances and evolves.
Originally Posted By Gyrene84:
No, but if you can make for me an electric motorcycle with a range of 100+ miles that can hit 90+, for the price of a current 600-1000cc bike I will be all over it.
No, but if you can make for me an electric motorcycle with a range of 100+ miles that can hit 90+, for the price of a current 600-1000cc bike I will be all over it.
I second that! I'd love an electric bike that could get me to the office and back with range to spare that isn't too expensive.
Originally Posted By the_great_mantis:
No, I would not. They take too long to recharge, and the amount of batteries I would need would make it cost-prohibitive. I probably wouldn't be buy one even if they were inexpensive. You can have the Gov. give away several thousand dollars to go towards your purchase price, and that's morally reprehensible. I'd much rather see the money (in the private sector preferably) go towards purchasing oil from Canada and/or refining Biodiesel. Vote with your dollars.
The law would.
No, I would not. They take too long to recharge, and the amount of batteries I would need would make it cost-prohibitive. I probably wouldn't be buy one even if they were inexpensive. You can have the Gov. give away several thousand dollars to go towards your purchase price, and that's morally reprehensible. I'd much rather see the money (in the private sector preferably) go towards purchasing oil from Canada and/or refining Biodiesel. Vote with your dollars.
Meaning there would be nothing preventing me from parking next to one of the hundreds of 110v outlets and letting afco steel pay for my fuel costs.
The law would.
The recharge time is something you would have to factor into your common usage of a vehicle. Myself, for instance, I only commute 30 miles total in a day for work. But I'm a bit outside of the city, so I'd need more range if I wanted to go further. Personally, I'd like an average range (not that hypermiling bullshit, getting it as far as you can) of 150 miles or more.
As for charging, lots of employers will probably allow people to charge at work. The cost would almost be negligible. Maybe a buck a day or so.
Originally Posted By Warhawk:
Do any of them have air conditioning yet?
That will severely limit their appeal in Texas.
Do any of them have air conditioning yet?
That will severely limit their appeal in Texas.
Yes, they have climate control that includes AC. Cool thing is, when the car is plugged in, you can turn on the AC and get the car cooled down or heated up before you leave. Most energy is used by HVAC in making large changes in cabin temperature. If you can start out your trip with a conditioned cabin using power while you're plugged in, the power used to maintain that condition won't be as great.
Originally Posted By 501st:
No.
Even if the Battery Technology became advanced enough to make long range travel and fast charging (under 30 minutes) an option, the inherent flaw with electric vehicles still exists.
Our energy infrastructure. It cannot support our current and future energy demands plus those of electric vehicles if widely adopted.
Hydrogen will be the future of automotive propulsion, everything else is a stopgap solution.
No.
Even if the Battery Technology became advanced enough to make long range travel and fast charging (under 30 minutes) an option, the inherent flaw with electric vehicles still exists.
Our energy infrastructure. It cannot support our current and future energy demands plus those of electric vehicles if widely adopted.
Hydrogen will be the future of automotive propulsion, everything else is a stopgap solution.
"...if widely adopted." is the key phrase. How long do you think wide adoption will take? Compound this with fact that most people will plug in and charge overnight when load on the grid is a lot lower than during the day. Our energy needs will grow regardless.
And for hydrogen, just where can you get hydrogen easily? You either get it from natural gas, or you electrolyze water. Hydrogen is not a source of energy, it is a carrier.
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
No. I keep my vehicles 10+ years and current battery tech doesn't last that long.
No. I keep my vehicles 10+ years and current battery tech doesn't last that long.
Where do you make that assumption from? Lead acid batteries in your traditionally powered car? A couple examples to whet your whistle: In 09, a guy had an original Toyota Prius, it was 9 years old and had 317,000 miles on it, and it still had the same battery pack. It was still fully functional. Another one - A123 Systems has a lithium based cell that can be cycled (that is charged up and run down) about 7000 times. At once per day, that's 19 years.
The biggest problem the industry is facing today is not longevity, it's power/energy density, and cost. Basically getting more power per pound of battery, and getting it cheaper. There have been many discoveries in the past few years that are in the process of being researched and refined. Batteries will get better in the coming years.
Personally, I don't want to have two vehicles, and while I don't do it every year, I'd want to have something capable of going long distances without having to stop. This is why I really like the Chevy Volt (and the Fisker Karma). You get ~40 miles - enough for me to commute to and from the office - on a charge that would cost me no more than $1.... but if I want to go further, I just put gas in it and let it run the engine! As long as I can find some place to put gas in it (I know, they are exceedingly rare, right??), I could keep driving. In another year or so when I get my current car paid off (09 Prius - got it for $19k, and could get ~$16k if I were to sell it today. If gas prices stay high, it will hold value quite well) I'm going to seriously look at what is out there. I really don't like GM, but I like the Volt. If they can get the price down a bit and if the tax credit is available, I may just do it. (before any of you complain, the credit is $7500, and I pay in quite a bit more than that, so I wouldn't be taking your money, I'd be getting some of MY money back)
Honestly, the perfect electric situation would be a car that gets ~200 miles on a charge that doesn't cost much more than a traditionally powered car. Couple this with a towable trailer that has a generator on it to power the car for longer trips, and you'd be set. Either buy or rent the trailer. If you ever push your luck and get stuck without juice, you call AAA and they bring you a genset! You just drive home and charge up, then take it back the next day.
Anyway, I think we'll see some interesting things in the near future. Gasoline and diesel aren't going anywhere for a very long time, but for those of us that just drive to and from an office every day, well, we could be doing it differently soon.
4/14/2012 7:30:04 AM
Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Funny, several really big companies are selling them or are close to it. Guess they're not ready, huh?
I do concede that it will be nicer as battery technology advances and evolves.
I second that! I'd love an electric bike that could get me to the office and back with range to spare that isn't too expensive.
The recharge time is something you would have to factor into your common usage of a vehicle. Myself, for instance, I only commute 30 miles total in a day for work. But I'm a bit outside of the city, so I'd need more range if I wanted to go further. Personally, I'd like an average range (not that hypermiling bullshit, getting it as far as you can) of 150 miles or more.
As for charging, lots of employers will probably allow people to charge at work. The cost would almost be negligible. Maybe a buck a day or so.
Yes, they have climate control that includes AC. Cool thing is, when the car is plugged in, you can turn on the AC and get the car cooled down or heated up before you leave. Most energy is used by HVAC in making large changes in cabin temperature. If you can start out your trip with a conditioned cabin using power while you're plugged in, the power used to maintain that condition won't be as great.
"...if widely adopted." is the key phrase. How long do you think wide adoption will take? Compound this with fact that most people will plug in and charge overnight when load on the grid is a lot lower than during the day. Our energy needs will grow regardless.
And for hydrogen, just where can you get hydrogen easily? You either get it from natural gas, or you electrolyze water. Hydrogen is not a source of energy, it is a carrier.
Where do you make that assumption from? Lead acid batteries in your traditionally powered car? A couple examples to whet your whistle: In 09, a guy had an original Toyota Prius, it was 9 years old and had 317,000 miles on it, and it still had the same battery pack. It was still fully functional. Another one - A123 Systems has a lithium based cell that can be cycled (that is charged up and run down) about 7000 times. At once per day, that's 19 years.
The biggest problem the industry is facing today is not longevity, it's power/energy density, and cost. Basically getting more power per pound of battery, and getting it cheaper. There have been many discoveries in the past few years that are in the process of being researched and refined. Batteries will get better in the coming years.
Personally, I don't want to have two vehicles, and while I don't do it every year, I'd want to have something capable of going long distances without having to stop. This is why I really like the Chevy Volt (and the Fisker Karma). You get ~40 miles - enough for me to commute to and from the office - on a charge that would cost me no more than $1.... but if I want to go further, I just put gas in it and let it run the engine! As long as I can find some place to put gas in it (I know, they are exceedingly rare, right??), I could keep driving. In another year or so when I get my current car paid off (09 Prius - got it for $19k, and could get ~$16k if I were to sell it today. If gas prices stay high, it will hold value quite well) I'm going to seriously look at what is out there. I really don't like GM, but I like the Volt. If they can get the price down a bit and if the tax credit is available, I may just do it. (before any of you complain, the credit is $7500, and I pay in quite a bit more than that, so I wouldn't be taking your money, I'd be getting some of MY money back)
Honestly, the perfect electric situation would be a car that gets ~200 miles on a charge that doesn't cost much more than a traditionally powered car. Couple this with a towable trailer that has a generator on it to power the car for longer trips, and you'd be set. Either buy or rent the trailer. If you ever push your luck and get stuck without juice, you call AAA and they bring you a genset! You just drive home and charge up, then take it back the next day.
Anyway, I think we'll see some interesting things in the near future. Gasoline and diesel aren't going anywhere for a very long time, but for those of us that just drive to and from an office every day, well, we could be doing it differently soon.
Originally Posted By castiel:
I don't think battery technology is anywhere near mature enough for electric cars. It will take a revolutionary new kind of battery before I will consider an all electric vehicle
I don't think battery technology is anywhere near mature enough for electric cars. It will take a revolutionary new kind of battery before I will consider an all electric vehicle
Funny, several really big companies are selling them or are close to it. Guess they're not ready, huh?
I do concede that it will be nicer as battery technology advances and evolves.
Originally Posted By Gyrene84:
No, but if you can make for me an electric motorcycle with a range of 100+ miles that can hit 90+, for the price of a current 600-1000cc bike I will be all over it.
No, but if you can make for me an electric motorcycle with a range of 100+ miles that can hit 90+, for the price of a current 600-1000cc bike I will be all over it.
I second that! I'd love an electric bike that could get me to the office and back with range to spare that isn't too expensive.
Originally Posted By the_great_mantis:
No, I would not. They take too long to recharge, and the amount of batteries I would need would make it cost-prohibitive. I probably wouldn't be buy one even if they were inexpensive. You can have the Gov. give away several thousand dollars to go towards your purchase price, and that's morally reprehensible. I'd much rather see the money (in the private sector preferably) go towards purchasing oil from Canada and/or refining Biodiesel. Vote with your dollars.
The law would.
No, I would not. They take too long to recharge, and the amount of batteries I would need would make it cost-prohibitive. I probably wouldn't be buy one even if they were inexpensive. You can have the Gov. give away several thousand dollars to go towards your purchase price, and that's morally reprehensible. I'd much rather see the money (in the private sector preferably) go towards purchasing oil from Canada and/or refining Biodiesel. Vote with your dollars.
Meaning there would be nothing preventing me from parking next to one of the hundreds of 110v outlets and letting afco steel pay for my fuel costs.
The law would.
The recharge time is something you would have to factor into your common usage of a vehicle. Myself, for instance, I only commute 30 miles total in a day for work. But I'm a bit outside of the city, so I'd need more range if I wanted to go further. Personally, I'd like an average range (not that hypermiling bullshit, getting it as far as you can) of 150 miles or more.
As for charging, lots of employers will probably allow people to charge at work. The cost would almost be negligible. Maybe a buck a day or so.
Originally Posted By Warhawk:
Do any of them have air conditioning yet?
That will severely limit their appeal in Texas.
Do any of them have air conditioning yet?
That will severely limit their appeal in Texas.
Yes, they have climate control that includes AC. Cool thing is, when the car is plugged in, you can turn on the AC and get the car cooled down or heated up before you leave. Most energy is used by HVAC in making large changes in cabin temperature. If you can start out your trip with a conditioned cabin using power while you're plugged in, the power used to maintain that condition won't be as great.
Originally Posted By 501st:
No.
Even if the Battery Technology became advanced enough to make long range travel and fast charging (under 30 minutes) an option, the inherent flaw with electric vehicles still exists.
Our energy infrastructure. It cannot support our current and future energy demands plus those of electric vehicles if widely adopted.
Hydrogen will be the future of automotive propulsion, everything else is a stopgap solution.
No.
Even if the Battery Technology became advanced enough to make long range travel and fast charging (under 30 minutes) an option, the inherent flaw with electric vehicles still exists.
Our energy infrastructure. It cannot support our current and future energy demands plus those of electric vehicles if widely adopted.
Hydrogen will be the future of automotive propulsion, everything else is a stopgap solution.
"...if widely adopted." is the key phrase. How long do you think wide adoption will take? Compound this with fact that most people will plug in and charge overnight when load on the grid is a lot lower than during the day. Our energy needs will grow regardless.
And for hydrogen, just where can you get hydrogen easily? You either get it from natural gas, or you electrolyze water. Hydrogen is not a source of energy, it is a carrier.
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
No. I keep my vehicles 10+ years and current battery tech doesn't last that long.
No. I keep my vehicles 10+ years and current battery tech doesn't last that long.
Where do you make that assumption from? Lead acid batteries in your traditionally powered car? A couple examples to whet your whistle: In 09, a guy had an original Toyota Prius, it was 9 years old and had 317,000 miles on it, and it still had the same battery pack. It was still fully functional. Another one - A123 Systems has a lithium based cell that can be cycled (that is charged up and run down) about 7000 times. At once per day, that's 19 years.
The biggest problem the industry is facing today is not longevity, it's power/energy density, and cost. Basically getting more power per pound of battery, and getting it cheaper. There have been many discoveries in the past few years that are in the process of being researched and refined. Batteries will get better in the coming years.
Personally, I don't want to have two vehicles, and while I don't do it every year, I'd want to have something capable of going long distances without having to stop. This is why I really like the Chevy Volt (and the Fisker Karma). You get ~40 miles - enough for me to commute to and from the office - on a charge that would cost me no more than $1.... but if I want to go further, I just put gas in it and let it run the engine! As long as I can find some place to put gas in it (I know, they are exceedingly rare, right??), I could keep driving. In another year or so when I get my current car paid off (09 Prius - got it for $19k, and could get ~$16k if I were to sell it today. If gas prices stay high, it will hold value quite well) I'm going to seriously look at what is out there. I really don't like GM, but I like the Volt. If they can get the price down a bit and if the tax credit is available, I may just do it. (before any of you complain, the credit is $7500, and I pay in quite a bit more than that, so I wouldn't be taking your money, I'd be getting some of MY money back)
Honestly, the perfect electric situation would be a car that gets ~200 miles on a charge that doesn't cost much more than a traditionally powered car. Couple this with a towable trailer that has a generator on it to power the car for longer trips, and you'd be set. Either buy or rent the trailer. If you ever push your luck and get stuck without juice, you call AAA and they bring you a genset! You just drive home and charge up, then take it back the next day.
Anyway, I think we'll see some interesting things in the near future. Gasoline and diesel aren't going anywhere for a very long time, but for those of us that just drive to and from an office every day, well, we could be doing it differently soon.
It will be a very short while into the expansion of EV use before the .GOV will require car to only be charged at authorized stations. The rate will be higher because of motor fuel taxes. You will be a criminal if you plug your car in normally. That or you will be taxed annually based on GPS recording.
4/14/2012 7:36:45 AM
If they made an electric car that could go 400+ miles on a charge, AND could be recharged fully in less than 5 minutes, AND cost the same or less to buy and maintain compared to a gas powered car, I would think about it.
Until then, nope.
Until then, nope.
4/14/2012 7:47:53 AM
No.
4/14/2012 9:07:36 AM
I am not opposed to one as a local / commuter car for work, and 80% of my usage. However, the cost / complexity / maintenance / "when the battery dies" issues make EV non viable from a financial perspective. A conventional 40mpg gas / diesel car makes more sense IMO.
4/14/2012 2:18:35 PM
Fuel econ has always been a subject I've grown up with. Now, I've driven a car once in my life (as in it was 5 miles driving a drunk couple from my friends house to their house). I've driven pickups and SUV's all my life. My F150 (which had a V6 might I add) got 14 mpg on a good day. My lifted Cherokee gets 12 mpg. My Trailblazer gets 17 mpg fighting wind, 21 on a good day. In contrast, my mom's 2012 Edge gets 24 mpg (add 40 miles to my mileage list, haha) while my dad's 06 Megacab gets 28…
As you can tell, I really don't have a lot of faith in gas. Only things I trust to make it more than 140,000 miles are straight 6's and diesels. Unfortunately, only 2 or 3 straights are available today new, Porsche 911's, BMW M-series, and Dodge HD neither a vehicle I can currently afford.
I have a lot of faith in diesel however. I'm one of those, gas can stay at it's current price, diesel coming down would be better than gas coming down. CSX is currently boasting they can move 2000 lb 500 miles on a gallon of diesel using diesel electric technology. Not to long ago, the US military ordered a new line of heavy haul vehicles, all of which are diesel electric. I'm curious as to the aspect of fitting the technology into a pickup truck (it can be done, currently there is just a sacrifice of hp for torque).
As you can tell, I really don't have a lot of faith in gas. Only things I trust to make it more than 140,000 miles are straight 6's and diesels. Unfortunately, only 2 or 3 straights are available today new, Porsche 911's, BMW M-series, and Dodge HD neither a vehicle I can currently afford.
I have a lot of faith in diesel however. I'm one of those, gas can stay at it's current price, diesel coming down would be better than gas coming down. CSX is currently boasting they can move 2000 lb 500 miles on a gallon of diesel using diesel electric technology. Not to long ago, the US military ordered a new line of heavy haul vehicles, all of which are diesel electric. I'm curious as to the aspect of fitting the technology into a pickup truck (it can be done, currently there is just a sacrifice of hp for torque).
4/14/2012 2:20:28 PM
Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Funny, several really big companies are selling them or are close to it. Guess they're not ready, huh?
I do concede that it will be nicer as battery technology advances and evolves.
I second that! I'd love an electric bike that could get me to the office and back with range to spare that isn't too expensive.
The recharge time is something you would have to factor into your common usage of a vehicle. Myself, for instance, I only commute 30 miles total in a day for work. But I'm a bit outside of the city, so I'd need more range if I wanted to go further. Personally, I'd like an average range (not that hypermiling bullshit, getting it as far as you can) of 150 miles or more.
As for charging, lots of employers will probably allow people to charge at work. The cost would almost be negligible. Maybe a buck a day or so.
Yes, they have climate control that includes AC. Cool thing is, when the car is plugged in, you can turn on the AC and get the car cooled down or heated up before you leave. Most energy is used by HVAC in making large changes in cabin temperature. If you can start out your trip with a conditioned cabin using power while you're plugged in, the power used to maintain that condition won't be as great.
"...if widely adopted." is the key phrase. How long do you think wide adoption will take? Compound this with fact that most people will plug in and charge overnight when load on the grid is a lot lower than during the day. Our energy needs will grow regardless.
And for hydrogen, just where can you get hydrogen easily? You either get it from natural gas, or you electrolyze water. Hydrogen is not a source of energy, it is a carrier.
Where do you make that assumption from? Lead acid batteries in your traditionally powered car? A couple examples to whet your whistle: In 09, a guy had an original Toyota Prius, it was 9 years old and had 317,000 miles on it, and it still had the same battery pack. It was still fully functional. Another one - A123 Systems has a lithium based cell that can be cycled (that is charged up and run down) about 7000 times. At once per day, that's 19 years.
The biggest problem the industry is facing today is not longevity, it's power/energy density, and cost. Basically getting more power per pound of battery, and getting it cheaper. There have been many discoveries in the past few years that are in the process of being researched and refined. Batteries will get better in the coming years.
Personally, I don't want to have two vehicles, and while I don't do it every year, I'd want to have something capable of going long distances without having to stop. This is why I really like the Chevy Volt (and the Fisker Karma). You get ~40 miles - enough for me to commute to and from the office - on a charge that would cost me no more than $1.... but if I want to go further, I just put gas in it and let it run the engine! As long as I can find some place to put gas in it (I know, they are exceedingly rare, right??), I could keep driving. In another year or so when I get my current car paid off (09 Prius - got it for $19k, and could get ~$16k if I were to sell it today. If gas prices stay high, it will hold value quite well) I'm going to seriously look at what is out there. I really don't like GM, but I like the Volt. If they can get the price down a bit and if the tax credit is available, I may just do it. (before any of you complain, the credit is $7500, and I pay in quite a bit more than that, so I wouldn't be taking your money, I'd be getting some of MY money back)
Honestly, the perfect electric situation would be a car that gets ~200 miles on a charge that doesn't cost much more than a traditionally powered car. Couple this with a towable trailer that has a generator on it to power the car for longer trips, and you'd be set. Either buy or rent the trailer. If you ever push your luck and get stuck without juice, you call AAA and they bring you a genset! You just drive home and charge up, then take it back the next day.
Anyway, I think we'll see some interesting things in the near future. Gasoline and diesel aren't going anywhere for a very long time, but for those of us that just drive to and from an office every day, well, we could be doing it differently soon.
Originally Posted By castiel:
I don't think battery technology is anywhere near mature enough for electric cars. It will take a revolutionary new kind of battery before I will consider an all electric vehicle
I don't think battery technology is anywhere near mature enough for electric cars. It will take a revolutionary new kind of battery before I will consider an all electric vehicle
Funny, several really big companies are selling them or are close to it. Guess they're not ready, huh?
I do concede that it will be nicer as battery technology advances and evolves.
Originally Posted By Gyrene84:
No, but if you can make for me an electric motorcycle with a range of 100+ miles that can hit 90+, for the price of a current 600-1000cc bike I will be all over it.
No, but if you can make for me an electric motorcycle with a range of 100+ miles that can hit 90+, for the price of a current 600-1000cc bike I will be all over it.
I second that! I'd love an electric bike that could get me to the office and back with range to spare that isn't too expensive.
Originally Posted By the_great_mantis:
No, I would not. They take too long to recharge, and the amount of batteries I would need would make it cost-prohibitive. I probably wouldn't be buy one even if they were inexpensive. You can have the Gov. give away several thousand dollars to go towards your purchase price, and that's morally reprehensible. I'd much rather see the money (in the private sector preferably) go towards purchasing oil from Canada and/or refining Biodiesel. Vote with your dollars.
The law would.
No, I would not. They take too long to recharge, and the amount of batteries I would need would make it cost-prohibitive. I probably wouldn't be buy one even if they were inexpensive. You can have the Gov. give away several thousand dollars to go towards your purchase price, and that's morally reprehensible. I'd much rather see the money (in the private sector preferably) go towards purchasing oil from Canada and/or refining Biodiesel. Vote with your dollars.
Meaning there would be nothing preventing me from parking next to one of the hundreds of 110v outlets and letting afco steel pay for my fuel costs.
The law would.
The recharge time is something you would have to factor into your common usage of a vehicle. Myself, for instance, I only commute 30 miles total in a day for work. But I'm a bit outside of the city, so I'd need more range if I wanted to go further. Personally, I'd like an average range (not that hypermiling bullshit, getting it as far as you can) of 150 miles or more.
As for charging, lots of employers will probably allow people to charge at work. The cost would almost be negligible. Maybe a buck a day or so.
Originally Posted By Warhawk:
Do any of them have air conditioning yet?
That will severely limit their appeal in Texas.
Do any of them have air conditioning yet?
That will severely limit their appeal in Texas.
Yes, they have climate control that includes AC. Cool thing is, when the car is plugged in, you can turn on the AC and get the car cooled down or heated up before you leave. Most energy is used by HVAC in making large changes in cabin temperature. If you can start out your trip with a conditioned cabin using power while you're plugged in, the power used to maintain that condition won't be as great.
Originally Posted By 501st:
No.
Even if the Battery Technology became advanced enough to make long range travel and fast charging (under 30 minutes) an option, the inherent flaw with electric vehicles still exists.
Our energy infrastructure. It cannot support our current and future energy demands plus those of electric vehicles if widely adopted.
Hydrogen will be the future of automotive propulsion, everything else is a stopgap solution.
No.
Even if the Battery Technology became advanced enough to make long range travel and fast charging (under 30 minutes) an option, the inherent flaw with electric vehicles still exists.
Our energy infrastructure. It cannot support our current and future energy demands plus those of electric vehicles if widely adopted.
Hydrogen will be the future of automotive propulsion, everything else is a stopgap solution.
"...if widely adopted." is the key phrase. How long do you think wide adoption will take? Compound this with fact that most people will plug in and charge overnight when load on the grid is a lot lower than during the day. Our energy needs will grow regardless.
And for hydrogen, just where can you get hydrogen easily? You either get it from natural gas, or you electrolyze water. Hydrogen is not a source of energy, it is a carrier.
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
No. I keep my vehicles 10+ years and current battery tech doesn't last that long.
No. I keep my vehicles 10+ years and current battery tech doesn't last that long.
Where do you make that assumption from? Lead acid batteries in your traditionally powered car? A couple examples to whet your whistle: In 09, a guy had an original Toyota Prius, it was 9 years old and had 317,000 miles on it, and it still had the same battery pack. It was still fully functional. Another one - A123 Systems has a lithium based cell that can be cycled (that is charged up and run down) about 7000 times. At once per day, that's 19 years.
The biggest problem the industry is facing today is not longevity, it's power/energy density, and cost. Basically getting more power per pound of battery, and getting it cheaper. There have been many discoveries in the past few years that are in the process of being researched and refined. Batteries will get better in the coming years.
Personally, I don't want to have two vehicles, and while I don't do it every year, I'd want to have something capable of going long distances without having to stop. This is why I really like the Chevy Volt (and the Fisker Karma). You get ~40 miles - enough for me to commute to and from the office - on a charge that would cost me no more than $1.... but if I want to go further, I just put gas in it and let it run the engine! As long as I can find some place to put gas in it (I know, they are exceedingly rare, right??), I could keep driving. In another year or so when I get my current car paid off (09 Prius - got it for $19k, and could get ~$16k if I were to sell it today. If gas prices stay high, it will hold value quite well) I'm going to seriously look at what is out there. I really don't like GM, but I like the Volt. If they can get the price down a bit and if the tax credit is available, I may just do it. (before any of you complain, the credit is $7500, and I pay in quite a bit more than that, so I wouldn't be taking your money, I'd be getting some of MY money back)
Honestly, the perfect electric situation would be a car that gets ~200 miles on a charge that doesn't cost much more than a traditionally powered car. Couple this with a towable trailer that has a generator on it to power the car for longer trips, and you'd be set. Either buy or rent the trailer. If you ever push your luck and get stuck without juice, you call AAA and they bring you a genset! You just drive home and charge up, then take it back the next day.
Anyway, I think we'll see some interesting things in the near future. Gasoline and diesel aren't going anywhere for a very long time, but for those of us that just drive to and from an office every day, well, we could be doing it differently soon.
Depends. For people living in the city/urban areas, adoption will likely occur at a more rapid pace than those living in rural areas. The main hindrances to adoption are the availability of electric/plug in vehicles, and the pricing of such vehicles. A secondary hindrance is the technology, but this isn't as much of an issue for urban buyers which is the market segment ev's are targeted at.
Looking at the current electric/plug in vehicles on the market today, you have the Nissan leaf at $27,000, the Ford Focus Electric at $39,200, The Toyota plug in prius at 32,000 and the Chevy Volt at $31,645.
At these prices, these vehicles sell to more affluent people, prices need to come down to around the $20K mark for electric/plug in vehicles to be priced withing the range of what most of the public can afford.
I would start to consider electric vehicles to be mainstream when they reach/surpass the adoption rate of light diesel vehicles. (Not the HD pickups, everything below them like sedans and suv's) I could see this occurring withing the next 10 years or so provided the pricing of electric/plug in vehicles decreases and availability of such vehicles increases accordingly during that time period. It also depends on what the manufacturers tend to focus on, pure electric vehicles like the leaf and focus electric or vehicles like the volt/prius plug in which give you other options should the batteries run out and charging normally isn't an option.
You say that most people will plug in these vehicles once they get home, but I'm not so sure this will be the case. I have a feeling that a significant amount of charging will be done while at work, during peak hours.
Why do I say this? One reason is that for pure electric vehicles, the range numbers are not so realistic. They can vary for reason like vehicle payload, accessory energy drain, driving style, outside temperature, drag/friction/aerodynamic resistance on the vehicle and the wear on the batteries. These factors are likely cause people to charge more often than they expected, hence them charging at work/during peak periods of electricity demand.
Another reason is one similar to one you see today on conventional vehicles. Think of all the people you know that drive their vehicles and wait till the tank is below the 1/4 level to fill up. It is not unreasonable to think that people will exhibit the same behavior with electric vehicles, therefore causing more "panic charges" to occur.
Sure our energy demands are going to increase regardless, but I don't believe our current energy infrastructure can handle those increases + the demand created by electric/plug in vehicles.
Which brings me to Hydrogen.
Hydrogen does face similar issues. It will take a significant amount of time (20-25 years at least) to create the fueling station infrastructure and redesign/upgrade/improve our energy infrastructure/production methods to create hydrogen efficiently. However once that is accomplished, hydrogen is a much better choice for an automotive energy source than fossil fuel powered vehicles or traditional electric vehicles.
Consider the energy available in a kilogram of hydrogen, vs the same quantity of diesel fuel and gasoline. 142 megajoules per kilogram for hydrogen vs 45.4 megajoules and 44.4 megajoules for a kilogram of diesel fuel and gasoline respectively. Not to mention the lack of byproducts of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. (Hydrogen combustion vehicles are a bit more iffy, in that regard).
4/15/2012 2:10:18 AM
Originally Posted By 501st:
Depends. For people living in the city/urban areas, adoption will likely occur at a more rapid pace than those living in rural areas. The main hindrances to adoption are the availability of electric/plug in vehicles, and the pricing of such vehicles. A secondary hindrance is the technology, but this isn't as much of an issue for urban buyers which is the market segment ev's are targeted at.
Looking at the current electric/plug in vehicles on the market today, you have the Nissan leaf at $27,000, the Ford Focus Electric at $39,200, The Toyota plug in prius at 32,000 and the Chevy Volt at $31,645.
At these prices, these vehicles sell to more affluent people, prices need to come down to around the $20K mark for electric/plug in vehicles to be priced withing the range of what most of the public can afford.
I would start to consider electric vehicles to be mainstream when they reach/surpass the adoption rate of light diesel vehicles. (Not the HD pickups, everything below them like sedans and suv's) I could see this occurring withing the next 10 years or so provided the pricing of electric/plug in vehicles decreases and availability of such vehicles increases accordingly during that time period. It also depends on what the manufacturers tend to focus on, pure electric vehicles like the leaf and focus electric or vehicles like the volt/prius plug in which give you other options should the batteries run out and charging normally isn't an option.
You say that most people will plug in these vehicles once they get home, but I'm not so sure this will be the case. I have a feeling that a significant amount of charging will be done while at work, during peak hours.
Why do I say this? One reason is that for pure electric vehicles, the range numbers are not so realistic. They can vary for reason like vehicle payload, accessory energy drain, driving style, outside temperature, drag/friction/aerodynamic resistance on the vehicle and the wear on the batteries. These factors are likely cause people to charge more often than they expected, hence them charging at work/during peak periods of electricity demand.
Another reason is one similar to one you see today on conventional vehicles. Think of all the people you know that drive their vehicles and wait till the tank is below the 1/4 level to fill up. It is not unreasonable to think that people will exhibit the same behavior with electric vehicles, therefore causing more "panic charges" to occur.
Sure our energy demands are going to increase regardless, but I don't believe our current energy infrastructure can handle those increases + the demand created by electric/plug in vehicles.
Which brings me to Hydrogen.
Hydrogen does face similar issues. It will take a significant amount of time (20-25 years at least) to create the fueling station infrastructure and redesign/upgrade/improve our energy infrastructure/production methods to create hydrogen efficiently. However once that is accomplished, hydrogen is a much better choice for an automotive energy source than fossil fuel powered vehicles or traditional electric vehicles.
Consider the energy available in a kilogram of hydrogen, vs the same quantity of diesel fuel and gasoline. 142 megajoules per kilogram for hydrogen vs 45.4 megajoules and 44.4 megajoules for a kilogram of diesel fuel and gasoline respectively. Not to mention the lack of byproducts of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. (Hydrogen combustion vehicles are a bit more iffy, in that regard).
Depends. For people living in the city/urban areas, adoption will likely occur at a more rapid pace than those living in rural areas. The main hindrances to adoption are the availability of electric/plug in vehicles, and the pricing of such vehicles. A secondary hindrance is the technology, but this isn't as much of an issue for urban buyers which is the market segment ev's are targeted at.
Looking at the current electric/plug in vehicles on the market today, you have the Nissan leaf at $27,000, the Ford Focus Electric at $39,200, The Toyota plug in prius at 32,000 and the Chevy Volt at $31,645.
At these prices, these vehicles sell to more affluent people, prices need to come down to around the $20K mark for electric/plug in vehicles to be priced withing the range of what most of the public can afford.
I would start to consider electric vehicles to be mainstream when they reach/surpass the adoption rate of light diesel vehicles. (Not the HD pickups, everything below them like sedans and suv's) I could see this occurring withing the next 10 years or so provided the pricing of electric/plug in vehicles decreases and availability of such vehicles increases accordingly during that time period. It also depends on what the manufacturers tend to focus on, pure electric vehicles like the leaf and focus electric or vehicles like the volt/prius plug in which give you other options should the batteries run out and charging normally isn't an option.
You say that most people will plug in these vehicles once they get home, but I'm not so sure this will be the case. I have a feeling that a significant amount of charging will be done while at work, during peak hours.
Why do I say this? One reason is that for pure electric vehicles, the range numbers are not so realistic. They can vary for reason like vehicle payload, accessory energy drain, driving style, outside temperature, drag/friction/aerodynamic resistance on the vehicle and the wear on the batteries. These factors are likely cause people to charge more often than they expected, hence them charging at work/during peak periods of electricity demand.
Another reason is one similar to one you see today on conventional vehicles. Think of all the people you know that drive their vehicles and wait till the tank is below the 1/4 level to fill up. It is not unreasonable to think that people will exhibit the same behavior with electric vehicles, therefore causing more "panic charges" to occur.
Sure our energy demands are going to increase regardless, but I don't believe our current energy infrastructure can handle those increases + the demand created by electric/plug in vehicles.
Which brings me to Hydrogen.
Hydrogen does face similar issues. It will take a significant amount of time (20-25 years at least) to create the fueling station infrastructure and redesign/upgrade/improve our energy infrastructure/production methods to create hydrogen efficiently. However once that is accomplished, hydrogen is a much better choice for an automotive energy source than fossil fuel powered vehicles or traditional electric vehicles.
Consider the energy available in a kilogram of hydrogen, vs the same quantity of diesel fuel and gasoline. 142 megajoules per kilogram for hydrogen vs 45.4 megajoules and 44.4 megajoules for a kilogram of diesel fuel and gasoline respectively. Not to mention the lack of byproducts of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. (Hydrogen combustion vehicles are a bit more iffy, in that regard).
I don't see the same issues you do. Waiting to charge until you get down to 1/4? Not likely to happen as pretty much everyone who buys an electric car will have or obtain means to charge at home. When you pull into your garage and the cord is right there, why would you NOT charge it up? Basically, I think the mindset will be different.
I DO however see companies offering charging at the office as an incentive. My company doesn't do it yet, but we are very 'green' and progressive and all that bullshit, so I would suspect they will offer charging. Most of the charging stations they are designing these days are not dumb. It's likely they could control the amount of power one would be allowed to consume. As this has not materialized yet, we can't really say.
Range does become reduced significantly due to conditions, load, etc. I read around on the Volt forums and found people in the cold ass parts of the US with Volts saw their ranges drop to about 25 miles in cold weather. By cold, there were guys in NY that saw temperatures at or below freezing. Temperature ranges will have affect on batteries, and this IS a challenge to be overcome. Thus, I do not see electric transportation being geographically widespread.
With the additional load on the grid, do you not expect power generation will not be expanded? Sure, the government will be a barrier to get through, but where I live, I have never seen a brownout or a blackout caused by overload on the grid. Now, I also don't live in Southern California where that shit is common. Basically, though, the grid is not something that will never change. Adoption of electric cars will likely be slow enough so as to avoid sudden major problems. Barring some badass breakthrough that massively increases power density and lowers cost of electric storage, that is.
Hydrogen would be neat, but again, it is not a SOURCE of energy, it is a carrier. What I mean is that you can't drill a well and pump hydrogen out of it. You have to get it from something else. And it takes energy to get it. It may be better as a portable fuel source for a distributed network of fueling... but how are we going to get the hydrogen in the first place?
There are definitely problems to be solved. We put a man on the moon 50 years ago. We can do this shit. Just need to get government out of the way!
4/15/2012 2:23:00 AM
I work 6 blocks from home. I would be glad to drive a cheap electric vehicle to work...in fact I'm thinking about acquiring a street-legal golf cart or something like that.
4/15/2012 3:20:50 AM
Originally Posted By KS_Physicist:
I work 6 blocks from home. I would be glad to drive a cheap electric vehicle to work...in fact I'm thinking about acquiring a street-legal golf cart or something like that.
I work 6 blocks from home. I would be glad to drive a cheap electric vehicle to work...in fact I'm thinking about acquiring a street-legal golf cart or something like that.
A bicycle would be a better option for such a short distance. There are also electric or gas-powered bicycles available.
4/15/2012 9:39:33 AM
Originally Posted By KS_Physicist:
I work 6 blocks from home. I would be glad to drive a cheap electric vehicle to work...in fact I'm thinking about acquiring a street-legal golf cart or something like that.
I work 6 blocks from home. I would be glad to drive a cheap electric vehicle to work...in fact I'm thinking about acquiring a street-legal golf cart or something like that.
6 blocks?
Bike?
Walk?
4/15/2012 2:03:31 PM
Originally Posted By fishkiller98579:
like a zero s?
Originally Posted By Gyrene84:
No, but if you can make for me an electric motorcycle with a range of 100+ miles that can hit 90+, for the price of a current 600-1000cc bike I will be all over it.
No, but if you can make for me an electric motorcycle with a range of 100+ miles that can hit 90+, for the price of a current 600-1000cc bike I will be all over it.
like a zero s?
On the same suburban driving cycle, last year’s bike squeaked out just 42 miles on a charge; the new machines with the optional pack will do about 114 miles. But just as significantly, performance also has increased, with maximum torque delivered to the rear wheel (and thus acceleration) increased by almost 50 percent; top speed has jumped roughly 20 mph from the mid-sixties to the mid-eighties. This is something you can feel every time you twist the throttle.
I think $14,000 for 63mi highway max range, and that's at 70mph, does not meet my requirements. I need that 100+ mi if I am to go to LA or Santa Barbara round trip. They are getting close though, maybe they will improve in a few years and I will get what I want.
4/15/2012 9:52:53 PM
Sure if it has 360ft lbs of torque, a Class 3 hitch and can two 10,000 lbs
4/15/2012 10:21:39 PM
So someone pays for an electric car that isn't exactly cheap then if you want to go out of town for the weekend/vacation you have to rent a car? Yeah right.
I'll buy an electric vehicle when it's cheaper than gas/diesel and can tow 8,000 to 10,000 pounds and go 600 miles between charges and charge fully in about 5 minutes or so and I can charge it at every corner in the US for less than the cost of gas/diesel and can be "recharged" via gravity like my diesel truck at the house from a 500 gallon tank for when I go 2-3 weeks without electricity from a hurricane which has happened 3 times in the last 10 years.
4/15/2012 11:54:28 PM
Originally Posted By NathanL:
I'll buy an electric vehicle when it's cheaper than gas/diesel and can tow 8,000 to 10,000 pounds and go 600 miles between charges and charge fully in about 5 minutes or so and I can charge it at every corner in the US for less than the cost of gas/diesel and can be "recharged" via gravity like my diesel truck at the house from a 500 gallon tank for when I go 2-3 weeks without electricity from a hurricane which has happened 3 times in the last 10 years.
So someone pays for an electric car that isn't exactly cheap then if you want to go out of town for the weekend/vacation you have to rent a car? Yeah right.
I'll buy an electric vehicle when it's cheaper than gas/diesel and can tow 8,000 to 10,000 pounds and go 600 miles between charges and charge fully in about 5 minutes or so and I can charge it at every corner in the US for less than the cost of gas/diesel and can be "recharged" via gravity like my diesel truck at the house from a 500 gallon tank for when I go 2-3 weeks without electricity from a hurricane which has happened 3 times in the last 10 years.
You do realize that you can own more than one vehicle right?
Out of town vacation is the mustangs job if its top down weather. The XB if not. Then there's the tundra for outdoorsey stuff
4/16/2012 12:06:04 AM
Originally Posted By NathanL:
I'll buy an electric vehicle when it's cheaper than gas/diesel and can tow 8,000 to 10,000 pounds and go 600 miles between charges and charge fully in about 5 minutes or so and I can charge it at every corner in the US for less than the cost of gas/diesel and can be "recharged" via gravity like my diesel truck at the house from a 500 gallon tank for when I go 2-3 weeks without electricity from a hurricane which has happened 3 times in the last 10 years.
So someone pays for an electric car that isn't exactly cheap then if you want to go out of town for the weekend/vacation you have to rent a car? Yeah right.
I'll buy an electric vehicle when it's cheaper than gas/diesel and can tow 8,000 to 10,000 pounds and go 600 miles between charges and charge fully in about 5 minutes or so and I can charge it at every corner in the US for less than the cost of gas/diesel and can be "recharged" via gravity like my diesel truck at the house from a 500 gallon tank for when I go 2-3 weeks without electricity from a hurricane which has happened 3 times in the last 10 years.
Diesel electric may be for you. The benefit to an electric motor, you have instant torque. Diesel electric uses the engine as a generator to provide the electricity to turn the wheels. The term hybrid implies that batteries are used to power the motors, gas electric and diesel electric don't store the energy they create.
Most diesels hit peak torque at 1600 rpm, which is roughly 55 mph or so depending on how the truck is geared. Example, my father's 06 Dodge puts out 650 lb-ft @ 1600 rpm. First gear has a 2.41:1 ratio with a 4.10:1 ratio in the rear…that's nearly 6400 lb-ft of torque to get a a load rolling (if your spooling your turbos and don't let the TC/clutch engage until then). In contrast a Cummins B3.9 (the 4 cylinder version of the 12 valve 5.9) can easily be tuned to make 500+ lb-ft for around $600 in parts (which means your running roughly 150 hp).The way an electric motor works, at 100 rpm (with 135hp input, allowing for a 15% loss through transmission, and a 3.55:1 rear end gear) that 4 cylinder can put out 7090 lb-ft of torque (the faster the engine's speed, the less torque)…allowing you to still get your load rolling. In order to get the load up to speed, you'll have to run through multiple rpm ranges (usually between 1600 and 3200 rpm) and multiple gears. The engine in the diesel electric however will run no higher than 1600 rpm (different engine consume fuel differently at this speed). For most unloaded situations however, the general idea its that the engine shouldn't have to run much higher than idle (assuming you have the power to provide the torque to push the vehicle down the road at a given speed). At idle, my dad's Dodge consumes about .25 gal/hr, my friend's Duramax about .3 gal/hr (I have a friend with a PSD that's close to .3 as well). If the power is there to run at idle, a vehicle could run for 4 hours @70 mph before consuming 1 gallon of fuel (that's about 280 mpg) while keeping the engine at idle.
That's the theory at least behind the system. Imagine using a 25 gallon tank and a 100hr oil change routine, you could make it between oil changes on a single tank of fuel. Not to mention that an electric motor can be used as a static brake, which can provide the same amount of input power into bhp (exhaust brakes provide roughly 100 bhp, Jake brakes provide roughly 200 bhp). This is a unexplored technology to vehicles but has been used in ships for several decades and locomotives for quite some time…about 70 years to be more precise...and is something that even the military is beginning to use.
4/16/2012 2:02:46 AM
Originally Posted By Firebird69:
Sure if it has 360ft lbs of torque, a Class 3 hitch and can two 10,000 lbs
Sure if it has 360ft lbs of torque, a Class 3 hitch and can two 10,000 lbs
Audi's eTron concept car laid down 3319ft-lb of torque. Is that enough for you?
ETA: The sentiment here is that electric motors lay down a shit ton of torque... however, electric cars are not ready to supplant fossil fuels. They probably won't be able to do so for decades to come. There are breakthroughs that have not been made yet. However, for light duty and local or short distance commuting, they could make sense to some people.
4/16/2012 12:25:31 PM
Originally Posted By Krochus:
You do realize that you can own more than one vehicle right?
Out of town vacation is the mustangs job if its top down weather. The XB if not. Then there's the tundra for outdoorsey stuff
Originally Posted By NathanL:
I'll buy an electric vehicle when it's cheaper than gas/diesel and can tow 8,000 to 10,000 pounds and go 600 miles between charges and charge fully in about 5 minutes or so and I can charge it at every corner in the US for less than the cost of gas/diesel and can be "recharged" via gravity like my diesel truck at the house from a 500 gallon tank for when I go 2-3 weeks without electricity from a hurricane which has happened 3 times in the last 10 years.
So someone pays for an electric car that isn't exactly cheap then if you want to go out of town for the weekend/vacation you have to rent a car? Yeah right.
I'll buy an electric vehicle when it's cheaper than gas/diesel and can tow 8,000 to 10,000 pounds and go 600 miles between charges and charge fully in about 5 minutes or so and I can charge it at every corner in the US for less than the cost of gas/diesel and can be "recharged" via gravity like my diesel truck at the house from a 500 gallon tank for when I go 2-3 weeks without electricity from a hurricane which has happened 3 times in the last 10 years.
You do realize that you can own more than one vehicle right?
Out of town vacation is the mustangs job if its top down weather. The XB if not. Then there's the tundra for outdoorsey stuff
Most people who buy a pure electric car and not a hybrid will most likely have to live in a city because of it's limited range...so tell me where is someone who lives in a congested metro area supposed to park multiple cars?
I personally own 4 vehicles, but I don't live 3" from my neighbor either.
4/16/2012 12:40:35 PM
Originally Posted By postpostban:
Yes, they have climate control that includes AC. Cool thing is, when the car is plugged in, you can turn on the AC and get the car cooled down or heated up before you leave. Most energy is used by HVAC in making large changes in cabin temperature. If you can start out your trip with a conditioned cabin using power while you're plugged in, the power used to maintain that condition won't be as great.
Originally Posted By Warhawk:
Do any of them have air conditioning yet?
That will severely limit their appeal in Texas.
Do any of them have air conditioning yet?
That will severely limit their appeal in Texas.
Yes, they have climate control that includes AC. Cool thing is, when the car is plugged in, you can turn on the AC and get the car cooled down or heated up before you leave. Most energy is used by HVAC in making large changes in cabin temperature. If you can start out your trip with a conditioned cabin using power while you're plugged in, the power used to maintain that condition won't be as great.
WSJ says that using heat or air conditioning in the Leaf will use up to 25% of available power/range, and other onboard electronics will use another 10%.
So your electric car's 40 mile range is now under 30 if you need to run the heater or A/C and turn the radio on.
No thanks.
4/16/2012 1:27:39 PM
For those of you who answered "no," do you care to give qualifying remarks or reasons?
