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 Army M4 qualification tips
OBird  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 4:43:35 PM
Hey,

Going to qualify tomorrow for the first time with our new M4s. They tell us to aim at a different location for different distances, but it just ends up confusing me. How much do you REALLY need to off set your point of aim (either up or down) from 25 to 300 meters (with, I believe, the standard 300m zero)?

BTW, does anyone know how M4 qual proceedures differ from the M16? Someone told me there is a standing portion in it (M16 was only kneeling/prone).

Thanks
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AeroE  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 4:55:56 PM
Write the hold overs down and tape them to your stock. That's the only thing that will work at this point.

With a 300m zero shooting to 300m maximum, I would hold damn close to the aiming point at all ranges. I would hold 5 to 7 inches high at 100 and 200 meters with 62 grain ball ammo and dead on at 300m. Hold 3inches high at 50m.
OBird  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 5:03:48 PM

Originally Posted By AeroE:
Write the hold overs down and tape them to your stock. That's the only thing that will work at this point.

With a 300m zero shooting to 300m maximum, I would hold damn close to the aiming point at all ranges. I would hold 5 to 7 inches high at 100 and 200 meters with 62 grain ball ammo and dead on at 300m. Hold 3inches high at 50m.


Do you mean low?
silvery38  [Member]
5/1/2008 5:09:34 PM
With a 300 meter zero you will bullet will impact high at all ranges past 25 yards until you get to 300m. At the maximum ordinate your bullet will be 5-7 inches above the point of aim. This means at the worst your bullet will impact 5 or so inches above your point of aim. If you aim center of mass at all of the targets and you have a good shooting position and proper sight alignment/sight picture you will get a hit.
sylvan13  [Member]
5/1/2008 5:16:16 PM
when you zero the m4, make sure they are using the proper paper target and not the one for the m16. It does make a difference.
DiabloScout  [Member]
5/1/2008 5:18:40 PM

Originally Posted By OBird:
Hey,

Going to qualify tomorrow for the first time with our new M4s. They tell us to aim at a different location for different distances, but it just ends up confusing me. How much do you REALLY need to off set your point of aim (either up or down) from 25 to 300 meters (with, I believe, the standard 300m zero)?

BTW, does anyone know how M4 qual proceedures differ from the M16? Someone told me there is a standing portion in it (M16 was only kneeling/prone).

Thanks


Are you a Soldier / Marine?? It sounds as if you never done a military qualification before, or is this for some Carbine / Rifle class?
theBUBBAMANcan  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 5:19:21 PM

Originally Posted By OBird:

Originally Posted By AeroE:
Write the hold overs down and tape them to your stock. That's the only thing that will work at this point.

With a 300m zero shooting to 300m maximum, I would hold damn close to the aiming point at all ranges. I would hold 5 to 7 inches high at 100 and 200 meters with 62 grain ball ammo and dead on at 300m. Hold 3inches high at 50m.


Do you mean low?


No...think about bullet trajectory
AngeredKabar  [Member]
5/1/2008 5:19:21 PM

Originally Posted By OBird:

Originally Posted By AeroE:
Write the hold overs down and tape them to your stock. That's the only thing that will work at this point.

With a 300m zero shooting to 300m maximum, I would hold damn close to the aiming point at all ranges. I would hold 5 to 7 inches high at 100 and 200 meters with 62 grain ball ammo and dead on at 300m. Hold 3inches high at 50m.


Do you mean low?


No he means high. Especially with ARs as the sights are so high above the barrel.
DiabloScout  [Member]
5/1/2008 5:20:38 PM

Originally Posted By sylvan13:
when you zero the m4, make sure they are using the proper paper target and not the one for the m16. It does make a difference.


Very true. All sorts of dudes were dicked because of that mixup.
sylvan13  [Member]
5/1/2008 5:25:11 PM

Originally Posted By DiabloScout:

Originally Posted By sylvan13:
when you zero the m4, make sure they are using the proper paper target and not the one for the m16. It does make a difference.


Very true. All sorts of dudes were dicked because of that mixup.


Yeah, I was one of them for a few hours till I could get back on the line to correct it with 4 other guys. We had just gotten m4's issued to us, they fit better on the dozers. This deployment they took them all back and gave them to the headquarters plt.

Are you shooting paper or the green pop-ups?
SteelonSteel  [Member]
5/1/2008 5:35:43 PM
I was just reading an article posted hereabouts that the army is revamping the qualification and training vis a vis rifles and carbines.

One comment in the article is that the new battle sight zero will be at 200 meters as they're finding most engagements are 200 and less.

The other good part is they're going to do so more basic firearms fundamentals and then some combat shooting training. The foxhole shooting at popups is being replaced by prone, kneeling and standing with and w/o cover.

So next year might be different than this one. Good news for the warfighters in training and good for the army.

I'd do a quick search, they're doing this now at Benning according to the article. Maybe you can get a better idea of the course of fire.

Good luck and good training.

SoS
DiabloScout  [Member]
5/1/2008 5:38:29 PM
Most guys are shooting pop-ups that were shot to shit, so it really didn't make a difference anyway. A lot of dudes rounds go right through without a hit Good ole' US Army for you.
sylvan13  [Member]
5/1/2008 5:44:21 PM
we do the pop-ups at Polk, and yeah they are full of holes. We shoot prone supported and prone unsuported now, instead of in fox holes. For the standing and moving shoot it is a whole nother type of qualification, I don't even think you actually qualify, you just do it.
BeetleBailey  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 5:55:32 PM

Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:

Originally Posted By OBird:

Originally Posted By AeroE:
Write the hold overs down and tape them to your stock. That's the only thing that will work at this point.

With a 300m zero shooting to 300m maximum, I would hold damn close to the aiming point at all ranges. I would hold 5 to 7 inches high at 100 and 200 meters with 62 grain ball ammo and dead on at 300m. Hold 3inches high at 50m.


Do you mean low?


No...think about bullet trajectory


I am totally confused too

wouldn't you need to aim low to hit the closer target?



eta, n/m:



AeroE  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 5:58:07 PM

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:

Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:

Originally Posted By OBird:

Originally Posted By AeroE:
Write the hold overs down and tape them to your stock. That's the only thing that will work at this point.

With a 300m zero shooting to 300m maximum, I would hold damn close to the aiming point at all ranges. I would hold 5 to 7 inches high at 100 and 200 meters with 62 grain ball ammo and dead on at 300m. Hold 3inches high at 50m.


Do you mean low?


No...think about bullet trajectory


I am totally confused too

wouldn't you need to aim low to hit the closer target?

i91.photobucket.com/albums/k281/rowjims/traj.jpg



Play with this to estimate the trajectory -

www.hornady.com/ballistics/ballistics_calculator.php

Enter 2900 to 3000 fps and a BC of 0.27 (0.25 to 0.30) for M855 ammunition.

Also try a few variations with different zero ranges to help your understanding.

vaquero357x2  [Member]
5/1/2008 6:05:02 PM

Originally Posted By AeroE:

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:

Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:

Originally Posted By OBird:

Originally Posted By AeroE:
Write the hold overs down and tape them to your stock. That's the only thing that will work at this point.

With a 300m zero shooting to 300m maximum, I would hold damn close to the aiming point at all ranges. I would hold 5 to 7 inches high at 100 and 200 meters with 62 grain ball ammo and dead on at 300m. Hold 3inches high at 50m.


Do you mean low?


No...think about bullet trajectory


I am totally confused too

wouldn't you need to aim low to hit the closer target?

i91.photobucket.com/albums/k281/rowjims/traj.jpg



Play with this to estimate the trajectory -

www.hornady.com/ballistics/ballistics_calculator.php

Enter 2900 to 3000 fps and a BC of 0.27 (0.25 to 0.30 for M855 ammunition.



perhaps we are all defining holding high and low differently. to me holding high means pointing the sights above the desired point of impact, and vise versa.
AeroE  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 6:07:45 PM

Originally Posted By vaquero357x2:

Originally Posted By AeroE:
...


perhaps we are all defining holding high and low differently. to me holding high means pointing the sights above the desired point of impact, and vise versa.


What I mean is aim at a point higher than the place you want the bullet to strike.

Either that, or take a come up on the sights.

vaquero357x2  [Member]
5/1/2008 6:27:53 PM

Originally Posted By AeroE:

Originally Posted By vaquero357x2:

Originally Posted By AeroE:
...


perhaps we are all defining holding high and low differently. to me holding high means pointing the sights above the desired point of impact, and vise versa.


What I mean is aim at a point higher than the place you want the bullet to strike.

Either that, or take a come up on the sights.



details............
either way at least the two of us are on the same page
OBird  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 8:11:34 PM

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:

I am totally confused too

wouldn't you need to aim low to hit the closer target?

i91.photobucket.com/albums/k281/rowjims/traj.jpg

eta, n/m:

www.loadammo.com/Topics/Octobe2.jpg

www.loadammo.com/Topics/Octobe3.jpg


That's what I was thinking. If the trajectory is going to be higher at 150-200 than it will be at 25 or 300, why would I aim higher?
OBird  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 8:12:03 PM

Originally Posted By DiabloScout:

Originally Posted By OBird:
Hey,

Going to qualify tomorrow for the first time with our new M4s. They tell us to aim at a different location for different distances, but it just ends up confusing me. How much do you REALLY need to off set your point of aim (either up or down) from 25 to 300 meters (with, I believe, the standard 300m zero)?

BTW, does anyone know how M4 qual proceedures differ from the M16? Someone told me there is a standing portion in it (M16 was only kneeling/prone).

Thanks


Are you a Soldier / Marine?? It sounds as if you never done a military qualification before, or is this for some Carbine / Rifle class?


Yes I am, and yes I have, but not with an M4. Thanks for the concern though.
Arty8  [Member]
5/1/2008 8:19:46 PM
Just aim a little low for the 50's and a little high for the 300's everything else center mass and you'll be fine. Make sure that the elevation wheel is set to 6/3 and left alone for the M4 there is no "one click up."

Current qualification standards include 20 rds prone supported, 10 prone unsupported and 10 rds kneeling.



Shawnmt6601  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 8:25:58 PM
Im no expert but when using the army 300 yard zero method I have to aim about 7 inches low to hit at 100m and a little less low to hit at 200 and dead on at 300m ?????
BIGMITCHBAKER  [Member]
5/1/2008 8:30:26 PM
Dont miss is the only help i can offer.
FightingHellfish  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 8:35:48 PM
You're going to hold LOW at 100 and 200. It sometimes seems to work well to hold low on the 50 meter targets even though the POII should be close to POA.
Sylvan  [Life Member]
5/1/2008 8:40:20 PM
COM the whole way.
If you zero properly and aim COM, you are going to be hitting the targets.
I am always a 38 or 39 on pop ups with m4 and m16
Hipwrguitar  [Member]
5/1/2008 8:51:45 PM
When zeroing the M4 at 25m, set the BDC to 6/3 +2. Make all your elevation changes on the front sight so the BDC will work. Center your group in the lower half of the center bullseye. At 200yds, your bullet is 11" high so you want to be a little low when zeroing otherwise you may shoot over the top of the 175-200m target. HTH

Good Luck qualifying!
Stlrain0341  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 8:55:55 PM

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
You're going to hold LOW at 100 and 200. It sometimes seems to work well to hold low on the 50 meter targets even though the POII should be close to POA.


This.

Do NOT aim high, aim a few inches low at whatever ranges you shoot at between 25 and 300.

Although its not really going to matter. If you aim perfectly center mass you'll still hit the target.

silvery38  [Member]
5/1/2008 8:56:24 PM
The best thing to do with a good zero is to hold center of mass for all targets. But, if you wanted to hit exact point of aim you would have to aim LOW for targets closer than 300 meters. With a 300 meter zero the bullet crosses the line of sight at two places. The first is at 25 meters and the second is at 300 meters. At 25 meters the bullet is moving along an arc in an upward direction at 300 meters the bullet is moving down along the arc.
silvery38  [Member]
5/1/2008 9:11:19 PM

Originally Posted By Hipwrguitar:
When zeroing the M4 at 25m, set the BDC to 6/3 +2. Make all your elevation changes on the front sight so the BDC will work. Center your group in the lower half of the center bullseye. At 200yds, your bullet is 11" high so you want to be a little low when zeroing otherwise you may shoot over the top of the 175-200m target. HTH

Good Luck qualifying!


Fail

You only make changes from the 25m zero on the BDC to a M16. There is no adjustment from a 25 meter zero on a M4. The max height above point of aim is 10'' and is actually closer to 8'' under standard conditions. Zeroing in the lower portion of a 25 meter target will give a 200-250 meter zero not a 300 meter zero. This is better if you understand the ballistic principals involved. This type of zero will give you a flatter trajectory but you will hit low at 300 meters.
Dave_A  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 9:19:57 PM

Originally Posted By OBird:
Hey,

Going to qualify tomorrow for the first time with our new M4s. They tell us to aim at a different location for different distances, but it just ends up confusing me. How much do you REALLY need to off set your point of aim (either up or down) from 25 to 300 meters (with, I believe, the standard 300m zero)?

BTW, does anyone know how M4 qual proceedures differ from the M16? Someone told me there is a standing portion in it (M16 was only kneeling/prone).

Thanks


The 'standing' position is from the OLD M-16 qual - aka 'Foxhole Supported'...

Unfortunately, some posts haven't gotten the memo (no more foxhole) so they still shoot it the old way...
PA452  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 9:30:52 PM

Originally Posted By OBird:

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:

I am totally confused too

wouldn't you need to aim low to hit the closer target?

i91.photobucket.com/albums/k281/rowjims/traj.jpg


That's what I was thinking. If the trajectory is going to be higher at 150-200 than it will be at 25 or 300, why would I aim higher?


Correct, it would be aim lower between 25 and 300, not higher. On the 25s, I would always tend to aim a little low as well though, and around COM or maybe slightly higher on the 300s.

I haven't shot pop-ups since the summer of 2006, all paper since then. But it should be prone supported, prone unsupported, and kneeling.
BeetleBailey  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 9:50:53 PM

Augh! So which is it?
AeroE  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 10:04:05 PM

Originally Posted By Stlrain0341:

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
You're going to hold LOW at 100 and 200. It sometimes seems to work well to hold low on the 50 meter targets even though the POII should be close to POA.


This.

Do NOT aim high, aim a few inches low at whatever ranges you shoot at between 25 and 300.

Although its not really going to matter. If you aim perfectly center mass you'll still hit the target.



Whoops, y'all are correct; who the heck uses a 300 yard zero?

It's doubly embarassing because the calculator I linked calculates the sight come ups, which I duly ignored.


PA452  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 10:10:11 PM

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
Augh! So which is it?


Aim low between 25 and 300 with a 25/300 zero.
unseenSNIPER  [Team Member]
5/1/2008 10:19:45 PM
Is there a standard zero that you HAVE to use?

If not zero it at 50 meters.

That way, from 0-300m your POI will be no mroe than 4.5"-5" (I believe) from your POA.

Hold COM and you'll be set as long as you do your part.

If the target is really close or really far away you might want to aim an inch or two higher.
BKC1869  [Member]
5/1/2008 11:10:35 PM

Originally Posted By DiabloScout:
Most guys are shooting pop-ups that were shot to shit, so it really didn't make a difference anyway. A lot of dudes rounds go right through without a hit Good ole' US Army for you.


I used to hate that shit during Qualification. They would send us to some old shitty NG Range and the tragets would be so ventilated you could practically see through them. Especially the 50M and 100M Targets.

We would complain to the Range Cadre and they would tell us we were full of shit and couldn't shoot. You tell me, a soldier can consistently hit the 200M - 300M Targets but he's missing every 50M and 100M Target. Gee, ya think it might be because the close in targets haven't been changed out in 5 years.
CAsoldier  [Member]
5/1/2008 11:14:41 PM

Originally Posted By OBird:
Hey,

Going to qualify tomorrow for the first time with our new M4s. They tell us to aim at a different location for different distances, but it just ends up confusing me. How much do you REALLY need to off set your point of aim (either up or down) from 25 to 300 meters (with, I believe, the standard 300m zero)?

BTW, does anyone know how M4 qual proceedures differ from the M16? Someone told me there is a standing portion in it (M16 was only kneeling/prone).

Thanks



ah........no, you fire 20 rounds prone supported, 10 rounds prone unsupported and 10 rounds kneeling
Maggot  [Team Member]
5/2/2008 12:41:52 AM
Make sure you have the right aperture set.
Hipwrguitar  [Member]
5/2/2008 10:21:19 PM

Originally Posted By silvery38:

Originally Posted By Hipwrguitar:
When zeroing the M4 at 25m, set the BDC to 6/3 +2. Make all your elevation changes on the front sight so the BDC will work. Center your group in the lower half of the center bullseye. At 200yds, your bullet is 11" high so you want to be a little low when zeroing otherwise you may shoot over the top of the 175-200m target. HTH

Good Luck qualifying!


Fail

You only make changes from the 25m zero on the BDC to a M16. There is no adjustment from a 25 meter zero on a M4. The max height above point of aim is 10'' and is actually closer to 8'' under standard conditions. Zeroing in the lower portion of a 25 meter target will give a 200-250 meter zero not a 300 meter zero. This is better if you understand the ballistic principals involved. This type of zero will give you a flatter trajectory but you will hit low at 300 meters.


I do understand the ballistic pricipals involved but was a fuck head and posted info for an A4, not the M4 which doesn't need any come ups as it crosses the line of sight at 25 meters due to decreased muzzle velocity instead of 32 meters like the A4.
WildBoar  [Team Member]
5/2/2008 10:22:50 PM

Originally Posted By AeroE:
Write the hold overs down and tape them to your stock. That's the only thing that will work at this point.

With a 300m zero shooting to 300m maximum, I would hold damn close to the aiming point at all ranges. I would hold 5 to 7 inches high at 100 and 200 meters with 62 grain ball ammo and dead on at 300m. Hold 3inches high at 50m.
low would work better
AeroE  [Team Member]
5/2/2008 11:14:40 PM

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By AeroE:
Write the hold overs down and tape them to your stock. That's the only thing that will work at this point.

With a 300m zero shooting to 300m maximum, I would hold damn close to the aiming point at all ranges. I would hold 5 to 7 inches high at 100 and 200 meters with 62 grain ball ammo and dead on at 300m. Hold 3inches high at 50m.
low would work better


Read near the top of this page.

It's embarassing - don't prolong the torture.
WildBoar  [Team Member]
5/3/2008 12:20:08 AM

I always kept it a little low out to 200, COM at 300. I put it up to a foot low on the 50m targets as I was on a high assed berm a few times. Never failed me.
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