Calling Law School attendees and graduates, thinking of taking the plunge.

I am a Realtor in Houston and my son will be in Kindergarten soon. I would like to make more money and have more consistent and fulfilling work. I am debating on going to law school. I currently take and pick my son up from Pre-K. When my son goes into public school my wife will be able to take him to her school. This gives me the freedom to focus on myself. I have put him first for the last four years and it is now or never for graduate school. I don't want to look back when I am older and think about what could have been. I am currently worried about the housing market and the viability of making a nice career in real estate. My current situation gives me the ability to be around my son at my convenience but I am not making enough money to give my family the quality of life I would like to provide. The big negative is that I will have to take out loans to continue my education. I am also worried about how much time I will have to invest in the process. On the flip side, I have friends that have gone through the process and they are doing well.
I would like to get some insight from you guys that have traveled this road.
Thank you in advance for your comments,
Freeradical

I would not do it again.

Will you please elaborate for me?
What are you doing for work now?
If you are practicing law, what would you rather be doing for work?
What are the biggest negatives that you have experienced?
What are the positives?
Thank you Ford!

Unless you already have good contacts at a major law firm, or you have the credentials to get into a Top Ten law school, then this is a bad time to go to law school.

The law schools have been caught forging employment statistics for their graduating classes.

I know real estate is tough right now, but law is just as bad. And the structural issues that are undermining attorneys' salaries and employment prospects are even longer term that real estate's.

This. I'm a 4th year evening student and my wife just graduated. There are no jobs. The few jobs that exist don't paying well. The exception is those that graduate at the top of their class at a top 10 school. Most graduates I know are coming out making less than $60k. Hardly worth the tuition. The legal market is changing. Now is not a good time for law school.

Here's one of the articles talking about the recent actions filed by students: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904823804576500694179259396.html

Run, don't walk if you are going to be taking out loans to cover the cost...unless you have some sort of a master plan to secure employment after graduation. It will be YEARS before you start making the money you want to be making. (2L)

Every profession I try out, all I hear is "Don't do this, there are no jobs here." It's pretty discouraging, so, pick your poison. Everywhere you go people will tell you that their career field is a disappointment.

buddy, if it were easy enough to pen in a few lines, everyone would already know. It would be mass e mailed viral style. I can't put it in words. It's really overblown, there are too many of us, and if you don't listen to me and just do it, you will be back here in 3 years or so bitching about how your life sucks cause you can't find a job.
and you will be up to your eyes in debt. Even state jobs for lawyers pay nothing.
Being a lawyer in this world is like being a chicken on the farm. EVERYTHING eats chicken.....foxes, skunks, possums, even teh farm dog will steal a chicken or two....

MED SCHOOL instead.

I ennjoyed law school. I learned a great deal that is useful beyond the practice of law about thinkng and what not, however it is money losing proposition.

I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't had a family business to go into.

A lot of people that graduated at the top of my class were still unemployed a year after graduation - that includes people who graduated with very impressive credentials; one girl in particular graduated magna, was chief editor on law review and had a summer internship with Senator Leahy, and yet it took her well over a year to get a job. Granted when she finally did get one it was a sweet gig with the FAA. But in the interim she was living at home with her parents.

You can always get on assigned counsel lists at various courts, but they don't pay well - $75 an hour around here I think. That sounds like a lot of money but you can't bill 8 hours a day and you have rent and possibly a secretary to pay, plus other expenses like malpractice insurance, student loans, internet, etc. If you have private paying clients that can pick up some of the slack. One major positive of it is that you will gain an immense amount of experience, especially trial experience, because people who don't pay for their lawyers take cases to trial more often. I'm not aiming to put anyone down who does that work, of course; I'm just saying that it can be a very hard way to make a living.

I don't intend to discourage anyone from the law but I would be remiss if I didn't warn people to temper their expectations.

Oh hell absolutely, if you are going for the enjoyment angle, looking back on how it's over, and thinking the thoughts I learned to think, yeah, that's enjoyable. Definately taught me to think. And to read and write like a lawyer. But In this world, a hedonistic sense of enjoying ones self is generally limited to the rich or eternally poverty stricken. I am not the former and refuse to be the latter.

I'm currently taking a class on why that is bad...



You can say that again.



All my friends in Med School wish they went to Law School (or had gotten a job out of college) and everyone in Law School either likes to talk about how bad a medical career sucks, or wishes they went to Med School. No one is happy. Also, only one of my friends actually got into an American allopathic Med School, everyone else is either suffering with the rabble of PCOM students or is out of the country (these are exceedingly intelligent and capable people). It's no better. At least I get to stay close to home.

I can agree with the bolded part––but probably change it to the traditional "top 14" schools. The legal world is a prestige-conscious place (i.e. school rank, class rank, etc.) and you have to really be a rockstar at a lesser-ranked school to get the high-paying jobs; that is, you have to be in the top 5% of your class (note that your class is full of smart people, and even the dumb ones might be better at law school than you are).

On the other hand, law school is intellectually challenging and will certainly expand your horizons. OTOH again, I'm not exactly up at 1:30 in the morning just for grins (2L).

If you're serious about it, study and take the LSAT. If you get 170+ (and your undergrad GPA is 3.7 or better), then go to law school. If you get mid-high 160's (again with that 3.7+ GPA), apply and see what pans out. If you get lower than than, but some law book to read in your spare time and go find a career that actually has jobs available.

I would not do it again either.

The money can be good when things are going well. In the current economy not so much.

I would consider pharmacy school if you want a steady job with good pay. The ones around here make $100k plus.

I'm about to apply to law school but it's a small school that I can pay as I go to and still work a few shifts a week. I should be able to graduate debt free.

I've been told by a couple pharmacists that pharmacy jobs aren't anywhere near as easy to come by as they used to be.

I did have a client once that was a pharmacist at Target. She worked 30 hours a week - 3 shifts a week of 10 hours each. Her salary? $90k a year. For working 3 days a week.

I am an unusual person in that I am a relatively happy lawyer. If you were to put 100 random lawyers in a room and ask how many were happy with their career, you would probably get 5-10 people to raise their hand. If you asked how many would want their children to go to law school, you would see maybe one hand go up.

If I had the personality to deal with sick people, I think I would have been happier (lifestyle wise) in a health care job. A hospital job working three shifts of twelve hours a week would be magic.

I second this response. Dealing with sick people is the easy (and rewarding and sometimes enjoyable) part. Always worrying about how a lawyer will (mis)interpret your care is an overarching concern. Patients often have unreasonable expectations, like many lines of work. I go to church with three lawyers. Two in private practice, and one works for the Dept. of Justice as a prosecutor. The two guys in private practice don't like it, and discourage people away from it when asked. The DOJ guy seems to like his job a lot, but I don't know what kind of money he makes.

I'd be careful with that one, Obamacare and dropping reimbursement rates are making life harder over here, and tutition rates are skyrocketing (I paid 30k in tuition per year plus living expenses)

PA / NP school is a good alternative as well, I know people who are doing it with kids, and its only 2 years. I have a few friends starting off as ER PA's at ~$80-90k salaried per year. The .gov (and thus all insurance companies) is going to push hard for these mid level providers to do a lot of primary care in the future. The VA hospital system already employs a lot of them.

The downside is in some PA / NP jobs you are treated as a perpetual resident doctor, which can suck ass.

OP, you're getting good advice here.

I have a friend who just graduated from Cornell Law last May. That is a "Top 14" school. My friend is a highly accomplished person, and she graduated in the top half of her class. (I don't know her exact ranking...just that she was in the top half).

And now, almost a year later, she is STILL looking for gainful employment. She had a temporary document review job, but that paid $18/hour and lasted two months.

The point being, when even graduates from the top schools are having trouble finding gainful employment, that is what's known as a "clue". Law schools have been tremdously irresponsible in pumping out graduates during the last decade or so, and as a result the jobs just aren't there.

And even those new lawyers who are lucky enough to find a job, are often finding out that the day to day realities of practicing law are anything but pleasant. Legal practice in 2012 is a much, much different proposition than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

Seriously, learn a skilled trade or, better yet, start a business providing an in-demand product or service. Taking out a loan to attend law school is just nuts. Whenever I encounter giddy law school students these days, I just feel bad for them. They have no idea what awaits most of them.

The bottom line.

I will probably be getting out of the Army next year - I have a wide variety of experience and I have no idea what I will do.

Stay in the army?

Take what I will write below as one guy's opinion, not a rule, but some observations. I never wanted to be a "lawyer" but I wanted a job that would provide for my family and open other opportunities and law fit better than the others for me - So I don't absolutely love my profession or what I do, but I am thankful for it and what it gives. Some people base their entire being on their profession, and with that value comes a taint. Others hate what they do, and that also brings a taint. I am in the middle. I'm a mercenary who works for pay and goes home and leaves it behind. Also take in mind I have been putting in way too many hours and too much travel for the last year and I miss my family and am frankly burned out. That said, I've tried to keep the burn out from tainting what I write here too much. In the end, you take it for what you think it's worth.

First, take a real look at what attorneys do every day in their work. It's not a Grisham novel or TV show. It's a lot of reading, and writing, and processes, and admin, and meetings. You have to sell. You have to collect. You have to keep the books. You aren't pondering advanced loopholes or amazing defenses most of the time - you are drafting or reviewing a simple contract or writ or other crap document for the umpteenth time and can't miss details, because you can't paint over the mistakes most of the time afterward. You aren't building anything that lasts or is tangible. Our work generally has a short shelf life, and some people can handle that, some can't. Like all work in any job, there's a lot of repetition. Make sure it's the kind of repetition you personally can handle and attempt to enjoy - otherwise you are going to burn out quick. After all that, keep in mind that there's virtually no one who ever says "Yes! My attorney is here." - You might get a "Whew! My attorney finally got here." You will rarely get a thank you, even in corporate work, even from your own firm. If you do your job well though, you may earn people's respect and become a trusted advisor - If you value that a lot, those times will make the profession more than a paycheck.

Also, law as a profession is in tighter and tighter economics - Hourly rates are down as are salaries. Prestige is WAY down (but it kind of is for every profession). Top firms still pay well on partner track, but non-partner track and non-big firm work is not retire early and live a life of ease. The baby boomers are not retiring (a lot won't be able to) as fast as planned - Meaning partner positions aren't opening up as expected, so plan on longer partner track even if you get on that track. Sole practitioners are facing real cost problems. As a side note from this, if you get into government side work, make sure you aren't one of those who just complain about the lower salaries/bonuses, and ignore the benefits and lifestyle gains. In the end, we ALL work with crappy clients and good clients, good partners and bad partners, reasonable peers and unreasonable peers - just like every other job. Add in this economy, firms not hiring, firms laying people off, demanding more hourly productivity, ... - It kind of sucks to be trying to join the profession right now.

Law firms, and just being good at the profession, demands very long hours. You can go corporate side like me but still work long hours in most cases. My typical weeks are 70-80 hours. I'll get that down every few years to 60-70 but then will something will change and I'll be back up to longer days. Making partner usually does not cut those, so don't think "I'll put in long hours for 7-10-15 years and then spend time with my family". When you say you put your son first for the last four years, you are going to miss a lot of his elementary school years. Not saying don't do law - Just saying be realistic about what you will sacrifice and what you will gain.

Finally, law school kind of sucked. Especially first year, with second year and third year following closely thereafter in the suckage ranks. It sucked WAY more than my graduate degree. If it wasn't for two good professors, time spent playing rugby and hockey, and the degree opening some cool doors after ten+ years of experience, I would look on the whole thing as a waste of time and money. It's also not a fiction that the profession attracts an unfortunate proportion of jackasses (I frequently try to remember that and make sure I am not turning into one) - a good flag on people falling into that category is being a pre-Law undergrad. It's also academically and intellectually demanding - This varies from school to school, but my school was a bit of an ivory tower, socratic, and overly hard on purpose (our old dean told me once that if sthey didn't have a few drop outs that they considered it a sign it was too easy). So expect unbelievable amounts of work - as in "you could not complete the daily reading on your own if you worked 24x7" levels (speed reading is insufficient on its own - either pick adn choose, and/or you need a good study group, and one or two a-holes here can wreck things pretty handly, not to mention make life a lot less bearable). You do learn a lot (or flunk out, I guess). It's a system of thinking that comes with a mass of references. If you have a hard time remembering things like history, work on your memory systems. Bottom line, when I talk with peers about law school, most of them either remember a lot of parties and drinking, and getting called out/belittled by professors in class, but not a lot about fantastic moments of learning or insights or how to be a good lawyer (that comes later) - That should tell you something about the experience.

If after all of that, you are willing to take the crapshoot that you may come out with a job at a firm in this economy, then go for it, but keep in mind you were warned and chose to take the good with the bad.

I am a Judge Advocate in the Army - staying in will not be an option. I don't want to go to private practice.

I enjoy my job. I am general counsel for a healthcare company. However, it is not what I planned to do and would not recommend law school today due to the job market. Law schools turn out about twice as many lawyers per year as there are jobs, according to recent statistics. That is bad by itself, but when you factor in a minimum of 100k in loans, that is a very bad situation.

Graduating from a top 20 school or first in your class helps, but it is no guarantee of a job. The guy that graduated first in my class in 2000 went to a national firm here locally as expected, made great money (while working a ton, of course) and looked to be doing well. Then the real estate market took a dive and he and a few others were out. He is now a financial advisor. Something I am sure he never expected.

Everyone so far has thrown out alternatives, so I will as well. My wife is an accountant. She turns down job offers and the market is always good. Also, she has almost no loans from school. Me...I still have a lot.

I'm a brand new lawyer (admitted October 2011) and I love what I do. It's true that law school sucks, is time consuming, and is expensive, but in my case it is already paying off. I externed for a Federal Judge my 1L summer and had a job lined up for my 2L summer. I worked through my 3L year and I'm now an associate at the same firm. I'm happy where I'm at, but had an opportunity to travel to the offices of a big regional firm to interview last Friday; we'll see what comes of that.

Law school is a means to an end. Your goal is to put as much effort as possible into school, pass the bar, and get a job. Yes, a good law school helps get your first job, but after that no one really asks what school you went to.

Its a good profession, but very difficult to make a living doing it as well. Decide if its something you want, and if so pursue the dream.

Ive found temp lawyering through an agency will get you great experience and also lead to open doors.

Good luck.

Pretty sage advise right there.

My situation is a bit off the beaten path, but here are my $.02. I took out loans to cover living expenses and had a scholarship to cover tuition and books at a bottom tier law school. I chose that over paying my own full way through the top tier schools that accepted me but offered no merit aid. I got a clinic/internship during 3L year and moved into a clerkship from that then an associate position with a small firm upon graduation (all about the connections you make with profs). I made 50k, in South Florida...crap money, plus a percentage of receipts/billable hours (bonus if you will). I moved to a larger firm in Central Florida and pushed my total compensation to just over 100k for three years before I accepted a commission in the military as a Judge Advocate. I love my job as a JA and would not go back to private practice for twice the pay. My total compensation after a few years is still about 30% less than when I was a civilian. My first year in the military, the pay drop was closer to 50%. The quality of life however (when not deployed...like right now), for a JA is simply phenomenal. I worked an average 80 hour week as a civilian attorney. I work slightly less than 40 hours a week in the .mil on average, if you don't count PT. The .gov also has a sweet loan repayment benefit where any remaining student loan debt is wiped out after 10 years of 'public service' work and income based repayments.

Knowing about serving as a JA in the military, would I do law school all over again (and the FL bar)...maybe. If the .mil was not an option would I...hell no. It's not worth the money and the aggravation. I would be a landscaper and work in the outdoors all day.

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