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 Can I use too much oxygen absorber?
a_number_1  [Member]
5/2/2010 3:42:41 PM
I'm putting together an order from Sorbent Systems.

The best deal on an oxygen absorber is the 1500cc ones.

I was gonna get some 20x30 bucket liners, and these will be perfect, but I also planned on cutting down some liners to make smaller bags.

Can I still use a 1500cc absorber in a bag with a much smaller volume?.....I don't see why I couldn't, but thought I'd ask before I spent my money.

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Feral  [Moderator]
5/2/2010 5:09:22 PM
Using more O2 absorber than you need won't hurt the food but it'll cost more.
bmw20  [Member]
5/2/2010 5:32:46 PM
I always go over just a little bit. As the post above me states - it won't hurt the food but it will cost a little more. My theory is that if I'm packaging up food for 20+ years, I'll spend the extra 50 cents per bag to ensure all of the air is out. Remember that not all foods are created equal. There will be more air in a bag of oats than there will wheat berries.
a_number_1  [Member]
5/2/2010 6:01:24 PM
That's what I figured. There's only so much oxygen to absorb, once it's gone, it's gone.

Not arguing your cost logic, because you're right......but, I'm only planning to pack about 40 or 50 bags, so for the amount I want to buy from Sorbent, it's actually cheaper to buy just the 50 pack of 1500's and waste them size wise, than to buy large and small absorbers when I don't really need them. That make sense?

I'm trying to make the minimum $45 order and don't really want much extra left over since I wont be packing this stuff again for another year.

Thanks for the input.
Feral  [Moderator]
5/2/2010 6:13:25 PM

Originally Posted By a_number_1:
Not arguing your cost logic, because you're right......but, I'm only planning to pack about 40 or 50 bags, so for the amount I want to buy from Sorbent, it's actually cheaper to buy just the 50 pack of 1500's and waste them size wise, than to buy large and small absorbers when I don't really need them. That make sense?

Makes sense to me.......you're only talking a couple of bucks here and far better to have more O2 absorption than you need than not enough.
scottfire1957  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 12:56:53 AM
Using too much oxygen 'sorber might cause a "black hole" on the Earth! Think about it, man!


Edit: speeling erorrs.
WarLord31  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 1:18:26 AM

Originally Posted By a_number_1:
I'm putting together an order from Sorbent Systems.

The best deal on an oxygen absorber is the 1500cc ones.

I was gonna get some 20x30 bucket liners, and these will be perfect, but I also planned on cutting down some liners to make smaller bags.

Can I still use a 1500cc absorber in a bag with a much smaller volume?.....I don't see why I couldn't, but thought I'd ask before I spent my money.


NOBODY can really answer your question UNLESS they do the math and use the specs around that bag from SorbentSystems...

I have used that 20x30 PAKDRY7500 7.5 mil Multi-laminate Mylar bag from SorbentSystems. Here's the specs and calcs:

Critical specifications for this kind of material:
MVTR (ASTM F-1249 @ 100°F 100sq. in./24 hrs)
<.0006 gms
OTR (@ 100% Oxygen 100 sq. in./24 hrs) ASTM D-3985 77°F @ 90% RH
<0.0005 cc

EXPLANATION OF MVTR = <0.0006gms/100sq.in./24hrs at 100% Relative Humidity. A 20"x30" bag has a surface area of (20 x 30 x 2 sides =) 1200 sq. in. In 24hrs, less than 0.072 grams water can penetrate this bag IF conditions outside are 100°F and 100% Relative Humidity. In 1yr...less than 2.63 grams. 12yrs, 26.3 grams, which equals 31.6 milliliters, or 1 fluid oz of water inside the bag if at 100 degF & 100% R-Humidity for 12yrs. Not likely. But if submerged for 12yrs, with 105degF Summers & 50degF Winters, enough water vapor will get through.

EXPLANATION OF OTR = <0.0005 cc per 100sq.in a day at 77degF & 90% RH. In 1yr, 2.19 cubic centimeters (equals ~1 milliliter) of oxygen will penetrate IF the bag is in a 100% PURE Oxygen atmosphere at 77degF & 100% Relative Humidity - not a real-world scenario. However, air is 20% oxygen, so instead of 2.19 cc/year, it is 2.19 / 5 = 0.438 cc. In 12yrs, 5.25 cc (ml) - with the 1 fl.oz. of water also present = rust.

PAKDRY7500 is a high-end, long-term, highly durable, and very thick Mylar storage bag, at least 2-4 times thicker than beef jerky bags.


AS FOR THE O2 Scavenger...
Oxygen Scavenger - single-use material, solid, hydrophobic (does not attract water).
- O2 Scavengers must be put in place and vacuum bagged quickly! They begin absorbing O2 from Air within minutes.
- O2 Scavenger packets last only minutes, some up to 30-60 minutes if left completely exposed to air.
- Nearly all good O2 Scavengers are one-time use, not regenerable.

The 1500cc will absorb 1500cc of O2 from the air surrounding it. So 1500c / (0.438cc/yr) means that the 1500cc O2Scav inside a SEALED 20x30 PAKDRY7500 Mylar vac bag bag should last a millenium.

RIGHT?


WRONG!

If YOU TAKE YOUR GOOD OLE' TIME between when you take the O2 Scavenger out of its packing and seal it in your 20x30 Mylar PAKDRY7500 bag... only 30-60 minutes is all...chances are that you have probably used up a significant amount of the 1500cc capacity of the O2 Scavenger.

Also, what are you filling up that 20x30 bag with? Macaroni takes up a lot of space because its mostly air. Are you VACUUM SEALING the 20x30 bag? And if so, how thick is that seal - 1/2 inch wide heat-0seal, or a 2mm wide seal?

No amount of 1500cc Oxygen Scavenger bags will take care of anything if you don't pay particular attention to the details.

Check out this Archived Thread I contributed to some time ago...(will have a wiki site on it soon).
scottfire1957  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 1:21:44 AM
Originally Posted By WarLord31:

Originally Posted By a_number_1:
I'm putting together an order from Sorbent Systems.

The best deal on an oxygen absorber is the 1500cc ones.

I was gonna get some 20x30 bucket liners, and these will be perfect, but I also planned on cutting down some liners to make smaller bags.

Can I still use a 1500cc absorber in a bag with a much smaller volume?.....I don't see why I couldn't, but thought I'd ask before I spent my money.


NOBODY can really answer your question UNLESS they do the math and use the specs around that bag from SorbentSystems...

I have used that 20x30 PAKDRY7500 7.5 mil Multi-laminate Mylar bag from SorbentSystems. Here's the specs and calcs:

Critical specifications for this kind of material:
MVTR (ASTM F-1249 @ 100°F 100sq. in./24 hrs)
<.0006 gms
OTR (@ 100% Oxygen 100 sq. in./24 hrs) ASTM D-3985 77°F @ 90% RH
<0.0005 cc

EXPLANATION OF MVTR = <0.0006gms/100sq.in./24hrs at 100% Relative Humidity. A 20"x30" bag has a surface area of (20 x 30 x 2 sides =) 1200 sq. in. In 24hrs, less than 0.072 grams water can penetrate this bag IF conditions outside are 100°F and 100% Relative Humidity. In 1yr...less than 2.63 grams. 12yrs, 26.3 grams, which equals 31.6 milliliters, or 1 fluid oz of water inside the bag if at 100 degF & 100% R-Humidity for 12yrs. Not likely. But if submerged for 12yrs, with 105degF Summers & 50degF Winters, enough water vapor will get through.

EXPLANATION OF OTR = <0.0005 cc per 100sq.in a day at 77degF & 90% RH. In 1yr, 2.19 cubic centimeters (equals ~1 milliliter) of oxygen will penetrate IF the bag is in a 100% PURE Oxygen atmosphere at 77degF & 100% Relative Humidity - not a real-world scenario. However, air is 20% oxygen, so instead of 2.19 cc/year, it is 2.19 / 5 = 0.438 cc. In 12yrs, 5.25 cc (ml) - with the 1 fl.oz. of water also present = rust.

PAKDRY7500 is a high-end, long-term, highly durable, and very thick Mylar storage bag, at least 2-4 times thicker than beef jerky bags.


AS FOR THE O2 Scavenger...
Oxygen Scavenger - single-use material, solid, hydrophobic (does not attract water).
- O2 Scavengers must be put in place and vacuum bagged quickly! They begin absorbing O2 from Air within minutes.
- O2 Scavenger packets last only minutes, some up to 30-60 minutes if left completely exposed to air.
- Nearly all good O2 Scavengers are one-time use, not regenerable.

The 1500cc will absorb 1500cc of O2 from the air surrounding it. So 1500c / (0.438cc/yr) means that the 1500cc O2Scav inside a SEALED 20x30 PAKDRY7500 Mylar vac bag bag should last a millenium.

RIGHT?


WRONG!

If YOU TAKE YOUR GOOD OLE' TIME between when you take the O2 Scavenger out of its packing and seal it in your 20x30 Mylar PAKDRY7500 bag... only 30-60 minutes is all...chances are that you have probably used up a significant amount of the 1500cc capacity of the O2 Scavenger.

Also, what are you filling up that 20x30 bag with? Macaroni takes up a lot of space because its mostly air. Are you VACUUM SEALING the 20x30 bag? And if so, how thick is that seal - 1/2 inch wide heat-0seal, or a 2mm wide seal?

No amount of 1500cc Oxygen Scavenger bags will take care of anything if you don't pay particular attention to the details.

Check out this Archived Thread I contributed to some time ago...(will have a wiki site on it soon).


See MY post above. It's easier.

WarLord31  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 1:22:25 AM

Originally Posted By a_number_1:
That's what I figured. There's only so much oxygen to absorb, once it's gone, it's gone.

Not arguing your cost logic, because you're right......but, I'm only planning to pack about 40 or 50 bags, so for the amount I want to buy from Sorbent, it's actually cheaper to buy just the 50 pack of 1500's and waste them size wise, than to buy large and small absorbers when I don't really need them. That make sense?

I'm trying to make the minimum $45 order and don't really want much extra left over since I wont be packing this stuff again for another year.

Thanks for the input.

Again...DEAD WRONG... EVERY PLASTIC BAG allows oxygen, air, moisture, etc to get thru. Even Mylar, which is excellent at slowing the rate of penetration.

I repeat:

PAKDRY7500 by Sorbent Systems - 7.5mil Mylar laminate commercial/food-grade vacuum packaging bag material.
- 20" x 30" bags, 1/2" wide heat-sealed stripped 3 sides, open on one end.
- 10" x 16" bags, 1/2" wide heat-sealed stripped 3 sides, open on one end.
- 9" x 12" bags, 1/2" wide heat-sealed stripped 3 sides, open on one end.

Critical specifications for this kind of material:
MVTR (ASTM F-1249 @ 100°F 100sq. in./24 hrs)
<.0006 gms
OTR (@ 100% Oxygen 100 sq. in./24 hrs) ASTM D-3985 77°F @ 90% RH
<0.0005 cc

EXPLANATION OF MVTR = <0.0006gms/100sq.in./24hrs at 100% Relative Humidity. A 20"x30" bag has a surface area of (20 x 30 x 2 sides =) 1200 sq. in. In 24hrs, less than 0.072 grams water can penetrate this bag IF conditions outside are 100°F and 100% Relative Humidity. In 1yr...less than 2.63 grams. 12yrs, 26.3 grams, which equals 31.6 milliliters, or 1 fluid oz of water inside the bag if at 100 degF & 100% R-Humidity for 12yrs. Not likely. But if submerged for 12yrs, with 105degF Summers & 50degF Winters, enough water vapor will get through.

EXPLANATION OF OTR = <0.0005 cc per 100sq.in a day at 77degF & 90% RH. In 1yr, 2.19 cubic centimeters (equals ~1 milliliter) of oxygen will penetrate IF the bag is in a 100% PURE Oxygen atmosphere at 77degF & 100% Relative Humidity - not a real-world scenario. However, air is 20% oxygen, so instead of 2.19 cc/year, it is 2.19 / 5 = 0.438 cc. In 12yrs, 5.25 cc (ml) - with the 1 fl.oz. of water also present = rust.

PAKDRY7500 is a high-end, long-term, highly durable, and very thick Mylar storage bag, at least 2-4 times thicker than beef jerky bags.

WORD OF CAUTION: Foodsaver Vacuum Bags and many other retail-store "food preservation" vacuum bags DO NOT STOP water vapor and oxygen penetration adequately enough for this guidance. In fact, Foodsaver Bags are from 100 to 1000 times less effective. Why? Most vacuum bags like FoodSaver brands have only one or two laminated layers of two kinds of plastic material. Plastic film does a good job at slowing O2 & water penetration, but it depends on thickness. 1 mil, 2 mil, and 3 mil bags are the most common plastic films for consumer retail vacuum bags - 1mil to 3mils is HARDLY ANY PROTECTION AT ALL. By why sell them? The equipment and bag materials for the typical consumer housewife/household would NOT pay for much more. My wife has a Foodsaver. I HAVE MY OWN "FIREARMS SAVER".

Also, most consumer households don't consider storing frozen foods for more than 1 year anyway, and often use them before 6 months or throw them away. FoodSaver and similar brands know this, and design the material, bag, vacuum machine, and COST accordingly.

When you begin using thicker 3.5mil to 4.5mil bags, like those used for beef jerky and smoked salmon, you enter a more commercial level of vacuum food packaging. Thicker bags are much more difficult to handle, especially those up to 9-12mil and made of 4 or more laminated layers of different plastic films (nylon, PE, PP, PTFE, etc.). These bags take much longer to seal, and the seal equipment also requires higher heat. The last thing FoodSaver wants is a burned housewife, literally.

Lastly, the most effective barrier against O2, water vapor, and other gases is the thin "metallocene" (a metallicized) film laminated between multiple thick layers of the various plastic films already mentioned. This metalicized film, many times its aluminum, is the key feature distinguishing "Mylar" vacuum bags and films. (FYI - A "Mylar Party Balloon" is hardly 0.5mil and won't stop anything from escaping or penetrating. Its constructed completely differently.) If no "Mylar" material exists on BOTH sides of a thick multi-laminated vacuum bag, IT IS NO GOOD for long-term preservation methods, and forget ultra-long-term. Hence, FoodSaver is a risky material for long-term storage of your firearm in my professional opinion.

SAME APPLIES TO FOOD STORAGE USING THESE BAGS.
scottfire1957  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 1:27:29 AM
Originally Posted By WarLord31:

Originally Posted By a_number_1:
That's what I figured. There's only so much oxygen to absorb, once it's gone, it's gone.

Not arguing your cost logic, because you're right......but, I'm only planning to pack about 40 or 50 bags, so for the amount I want to buy from Sorbent, it's actually cheaper to buy just the 50 pack of 1500's and waste them size wise, than to buy large and small absorbers when I don't really need them. That make sense?

I'm trying to make the minimum $45 order and don't really want much extra left over since I wont be packing this stuff again for another year.

Thanks for the input.

Again...DEAD WRONG... EVERY PLASTIC BAG allows oxygen, air, moisture, etc to get thru. Even Mylar, which is excellent at slowing the rate of penetration.

I repeat:

PAKDRY7500 by Sorbent Systems - 7.5mil Mylar laminate commercial/food-grade vacuum packaging bag material.
- 20" x 30" bags, 1/2" wide heat-sealed stripped 3 sides, open on one end.
- 10" x 16" bags, 1/2" wide heat-sealed stripped 3 sides, open on one end.
- 9" x 12" bags, 1/2" wide heat-sealed stripped 3 sides, open on one end.

Critical specifications for this kind of material:
MVTR (ASTM F-1249 @ 100°F 100sq. in./24 hrs)
<.0006 gms
OTR (@ 100% Oxygen 100 sq. in./24 hrs) ASTM D-3985 77°F @ 90% RH
<0.0005 cc

EXPLANATION OF MVTR = <0.0006gms/100sq.in./24hrs at 100% Relative Humidity. A 20"x30" bag has a surface area of (20 x 30 x 2 sides =) 1200 sq. in. In 24hrs, less than 0.072 grams water can penetrate this bag IF conditions outside are 100°F and 100% Relative Humidity. In 1yr...less than 2.63 grams. 12yrs, 26.3 grams, which equals 31.6 milliliters, or 1 fluid oz of water inside the bag if at 100 degF & 100% R-Humidity for 12yrs. Not likely. But if submerged for 12yrs, with 105degF Summers & 50degF Winters, enough water vapor will get through.

EXPLANATION OF OTR = <0.0005 cc per 100sq.in a day at 77degF & 90% RH. In 1yr, 2.19 cubic centimeters (equals ~1 milliliter) of oxygen will penetrate IF the bag is in a 100% PURE Oxygen atmosphere at 77degF & 100% Relative Humidity - not a real-world scenario. However, air is 20% oxygen, so instead of 2.19 cc/year, it is 2.19 / 5 = 0.438 cc. In 12yrs, 5.25 cc (ml) - with the 1 fl.oz. of water also present = rust.

PAKDRY7500 is a high-end, long-term, highly durable, and very thick Mylar storage bag, at least 2-4 times thicker than beef jerky bags.

WORD OF CAUTION: Foodsaver Vacuum Bags and many other retail-store "food preservation" vacuum bags DO NOT STOP water vapor and oxygen penetration adequately enough for this guidance. In fact, Foodsaver Bags are from 100 to 1000 times less effective. Why? Most vacuum bags like FoodSaver brands have only one or two laminated layers of two kinds of plastic material. Plastic film does a good job at slowing O2 & water penetration, but it depends on thickness. 1 mil, 2 mil, and 3 mil bags are the most common plastic films for consumer retail vacuum bags - 1mil to 3mils is HARDLY ANY PROTECTION AT ALL. By why sell them? The equipment and bag materials for the typical consumer housewife/household would NOT pay for much more. My wife has a Foodsaver. I HAVE MY OWN "FIREARMS SAVER".

Also, most consumer households don't consider storing frozen foods for more than 1 year anyway, and often use them before 6 months or throw them away. FoodSaver and similar brands know this, and design the material, bag, vacuum machine, and COST accordingly.

When you begin using thicker 3.5mil to 4.5mil bags, like those used for beef jerky and smoked salmon, you enter a more commercial level of vacuum food packaging. Thicker bags are much more difficult to handle, especially those up to 9-12mil and made of 4 or more laminated layers of different plastic films (nylon, PE, PP, PTFE, etc.). These bags take much longer to seal, and the seal equipment also requires higher heat. The last thing FoodSaver wants is a burned housewife, literally.

Lastly, the most effective barrier against O2, water vapor, and other gases is the thin "metallocene" (a metallicized) film laminated between multiple thick layers of the various plastic films already mentioned. This metalicized film, many times its aluminum, is the key feature distinguishing "Mylar" vacuum bags and films. (FYI - A "Mylar Party Balloon" is hardly 0.5mil and won't stop anything from escaping or penetrating. Its constructed completely differently.) If no "Mylar" material exists on BOTH sides of a thick multi-laminated vacuum bag, IT IS NO GOOD for long-term preservation methods, and forget ultra-long-term. Hence, FoodSaver is a risky material for long-term storage of your firearm in my professional opinion.

SAME APPLIES TO FOOD STORAGE USING THESE BAGS.



Give us some REAL numbers man, not these "guesses."

WarLord31  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 1:27:30 AM

Originally Posted By Feral:

Originally Posted By a_number_1:
Not arguing your cost logic, because you're right......but, I'm only planning to pack about 40 or 50 bags, so for the amount I want to buy from Sorbent, it's actually cheaper to buy just the 50 pack of 1500's and waste them size wise, than to buy large and small absorbers when I don't really need them. That make sense?

Makes sense to me.......you're only talking a couple of bucks here and far better to have more O2 absorption than you need than not enough.

Only thing you guys need to be aware of if cutting the 20x30 bags to smaller sizes is the width of the heat-seal strip.

I've done that, as well as merged two 20x30 bags to make a 20x56 bag. Its important to get the same 1/2" seal around all four edges. Or else you're plain wasting money on a bag of that caliber.

Once you get your vacuum sealer to heat-seal the bag (which is a 2mmm strip), use a hot hobby iron (like the ones in a radio control airplane store) to seal the bag. Get it to 350-400 degF or better yet, test before hand.


You're wasting all of your money on these bags and 1500cc O2 Scavenger if you don't even get the seal right.


WarLord31  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 1:30:16 AM
SCOTTFIRE1957...

What don't you understand? Use the specifications for MVTR and OTR. Then look at your application to calculate it.

What is YOUR application? What are you packign away? Macaroni?

Beans? Nuts? Rice?

Or FIREARMS like I've done for over 10 years with real proof.

Really, if you doubt me, hey I don't give a damn. Your stuff can rot in moisture and O2. Whereas, for me and mine, I've done my research, math, and engineering...plus I have over 10 years of actual experimental proof.
scottfire1957  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 1:31:48 AM
Originally Posted By WarLord31:

Originally Posted By a_number_1:
That's what I figured. There's only so much oxygen to absorb, once it's gone, it's gone.

Not arguing your cost logic, because you're right......but, I'm only planning to pack about 40 or 50 bags, so for the amount I want to buy from Sorbent, it's actually cheaper to buy just the 50 pack of 1500's and waste them size wise, than to buy large and small absorbers when I don't really need them. That make sense?

I'm trying to make the minimum $45 order and don't really want much extra left over since I wont be packing this stuff again for another year.

Thanks for the input.

Again...DEAD WRONG... EVERY PLASTIC BAG allows oxygen, air, moisture, etc to get thru. Even Mylar, which is excellent at slowing the rate of penetration.

I repeat:

PAKDRY7500 by Sorbent Systems - 7.5mil Mylar laminate commercial/food-grade vacuum packaging bag material.
- 20" x 30" bags, 1/2" wide heat-sealed stripped 3 sides, open on one end.
- 10" x 16" bags, 1/2" wide heat-sealed stripped 3 sides, open on one end.
- 9" x 12" bags, 1/2" wide heat-sealed stripped 3 sides, open on one end.

Critical specifications for this kind of material:
MVTR (ASTM F-1249 @ 100°F 100sq. in./24 hrs)
<.0006 gms
OTR (@ 100% Oxygen 100 sq. in./24 hrs) ASTM D-3985 77°F @ 90% RH
<0.0005 cc

EXPLANATION OF MVTR = <0.0006gms/100sq.in./24hrs at 100% Relative Humidity. A 20"x30" bag has a surface area of (20 x 30 x 2 sides =) 1200 sq. in. In 24hrs, less than 0.072 grams water can penetrate this bag IF conditions outside are 100°F and 100% Relative Humidity. In 1yr...less than 2.63 grams. 12yrs, 26.3 grams, which equals 31.6 milliliters, or 1 fluid oz of water inside the bag if at 100 degF & 100% R-Humidity for 12yrs. Not likely. But if submerged for 12yrs, with 105degF Summers & 50degF Winters, enough water vapor will get through.

EXPLANATION OF OTR = <0.0005 cc per 100sq.in a day at 77degF & 90% RH. In 1yr, 2.19 cubic centimeters (equals ~1 milliliter) of oxygen will penetrate IF the bag is in a 100% PURE Oxygen atmosphere at 77degF & 100% Relative Humidity - not a real-world scenario. However, air is 20% oxygen, so instead of 2.19 cc/year, it is 2.19 / 5 = 0.438 cc. In 12yrs, 5.25 cc (ml) - with the 1 fl.oz. of water also present = rust.

PAKDRY7500 is a high-end, long-term, highly durable, and very thick Mylar storage bag, at least 2-4 times thicker than beef jerky bags.

WORD OF CAUTION: Foodsaver Vacuum Bags and many other retail-store "food preservation" vacuum bags DO NOT STOP water vapor and oxygen penetration adequately enough for this guidance. In fact, Foodsaver Bags are from 100 to 1000 times less effective. Why? Most vacuum bags like FoodSaver brands have only one or two laminated layers of two kinds of plastic material. Plastic film does a good job at slowing O2 & water penetration, but it depends on thickness. 1 mil, 2 mil, and 3 mil bags are the most common plastic films for consumer retail vacuum bags - 1mil to 3mils is HARDLY ANY PROTECTION AT ALL. By why sell them? The equipment and bag materials for the typical consumer housewife/household would NOT pay for much more. My wife has a Foodsaver. I HAVE MY OWN "FIREARMS SAVER".

Also, most consumer households don't consider storing frozen foods for more than 1 year anyway, and often use them before 6 months or throw them away. FoodSaver and similar brands know this, and design the material, bag, vacuum machine, and COST accordingly.

When you begin using thicker 3.5mil to 4.5mil bags, like those used for beef jerky and smoked salmon, you enter a more commercial level of vacuum food packaging. Thicker bags are much more difficult to handle, especially those up to 9-12mil and made of 4 or more laminated layers of different plastic films (nylon, PE, PP, PTFE, etc.). These bags take much longer to seal, and the seal equipment also requires higher heat. The last thing FoodSaver wants is a burned housewife, literally.

Lastly, the most effective barrier against O2, water vapor, and other gases is the thin "metallocene" (a metallicized) film laminated between multiple thick layers of the various plastic films already mentioned. This metalicized film, many times its aluminum, is the key feature distinguishing "Mylar" vacuum bags and films. (FYI - A "Mylar Party Balloon" is hardly 0.5mil and won't stop anything from escaping or penetrating. Its constructed completely differently.) If no "Mylar" material exists on BOTH sides of a thick multi-laminated vacuum bag, IT IS NO GOOD for long-term preservation methods, and forget ultra-long-term. Hence, FoodSaver is a risky material for long-term storage of your firearm in my professional opinion.

SAME APPLIES TO FOOD STORAGE USING THESE BAGS.



It really is a simple question. Will his idea work as he needs and as put forth? Yes or No. That's all he wants to know. "And all this science, I don't understand"

WarLord31  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 1:37:59 AM
Of course its a simple question. And sure its a simple answer - OF COURSE, ITS ENOUGH!

But hey...if you have no clue about the bags, the material and engineering that went into its design, and the specs...

...you're wasting your money and making guys like me who make a living in that industry a whole lot more money because your just being a "&*$&#^%$" about it.

If you want an answer, which one do you want? The one from your local gun dealer selling LaRue , or the one from Mr. LaRue's technical support staff? Which one will give you the real deal?

Like I said, I don't give a hoot if you don't care about the math, science, etc. If you want me to give you a SPECIFIC ANSWER BASED ON EXACT APPLICATION, well, hey, sure...

I charge $130 per hour for consulting rates. (And I have been paid that high BTW for my consulting work. And I am busy enough to pass on folks like you.) Pay First!
WarLord31  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 1:51:18 AM
And what ticks me off more are good ARFCOMers posting years later that their vacuum bag, O2 Scavenger, Dessicant experiment didn't work. Well, geez, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out why, duuhhh?

What? Because they don't follow instructions? They don't care about the science? They're too stupid to "check the specs, do the math"? NO. NONE OF THAT. THEY JUST DIDN'T GET THE RIGHT INFORMATION, DATA, AND KNOW-HOW.

'CAAUSE FOLKS LIKE YOU JUST WANT A "SIMPLE" ANSWER.

Shit...sure, a simple answer. For $0.10, that's what you'll get. A guy is trusting us with some $100 of bags and O2 Scavenger that's probably going to store $1000's of expensive material, food, or whatnot. yeah...its a dumb place to ask for a "simple answer" then

Also...why the goddamn attention to Mil-Spec this and Mil-Spec that? What - Military Specifications aren't science? What? Do you think the US Army just pulled a rabbit out of its ass when it decided to create Mil-Specs?

Check these out - FM 38-700/MCO P4030.31D/NAVSUP PUB 502/AFPAM(I) 24-237/DLAI 4145.14, DEC1999
PACKAGING OF MATERIEL - PRESERVATION


TM 38-400/MCO 4450.14/NAVSUP PUB 572/AFJMAN 23-210/DLAM 4145.12, APR1994
Joint Service Manual (JSM) For Storage and Materials Handling

MIL-STD-2073-1 - Standard Practice For Military Packaging
Revisions MIL-STD-2073-1D (DEC1999) and MIL-STD-2073-1E (MAY2008)

MIL-DTL-117H - Bags, Heat-Sealable
Current Revision "H" w/Amendment 2, DEC2009; revision w/Amendment 1, JUN2007; and earlier versions.

MIL-PRF-131 - Barrier Materials, WaterVaporProof, Greaseproof, Flexible, Heat-Sealable
MIL-PRF-131J (AUG1998) and MIL-PRF-131K (AUG2005)

MIL-PRF-22191F - Barrier Materials, Transparent, Flexible, Heat-Sealable
w/Amendment 1 (OCT2009); and prior versions

MIL-PRF-81705 - Barrier Materials, Flexible, Electrostatic Discharge Protective, Heat-Sealable
Latest version AUG2009; version w/Amendment 1 JUL2004; and prior versions.

Can you figure out the MILITARY SPECIFICATIONS I USED FOR THIS TYPE OF BAG, O2 Scavenger, Dessicant, etc.?

Hurts you brain huh? Hope it gives you a headache too. We taxpayers paid for this. Remember that, and its public knowledge.

IF YOU "PREACH" MIL-SPEC ABOUT YOUR AR-15 RIFLE, HEY YOU DON'T KNOW MIL-SPEC IF YOU'RE PREACHING SIMPLE ANSWERS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS.

scottfire1957  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 1:52:38 AM
Originally Posted By WarLord31:
Of course its a simple question. And sure its a simple answer - OF COURSE, ITS ENOUGH!

But hey...if you have no clue about the bags, the material and engineering that went into its design, and the specs...

...you're wasting your money and making guys like me who make a living in that industry a whole lot more money because your just being a "&*$&#^%$" about it.

If you want an answer, which one do you want? The one from your local gun dealer selling LaRue , or the one from Mr. LaRue's technical support staff? Which one will give you the real deal?

Like I said, I don't give a hoot if you don't care about the math, science, etc. If you want me to give you a SPECIFIC ANSWER BASED ON EXACT APPLICATION, well, hey, sure...

I charge $130 per hour for consulting rates. (And I have been paid that high BTW for my consulting work. And I am busy enough to pass on folks like you.) Pay First!




That's cool and all, really. It is. BUT, all you had to say was "yes, your plan will work, but you can get by with smaller bags of whatever. No need to waste money."

It's kinda like when somebody asks me how I fight a fire. They may be wanting gallons per minute through the handline I use, or how long an air bottle will last on my airpack, stuff like that.

I just say "I take that hoseline in, spray some water, and hopefully, the fire will go out." There's all kinds of math behind gallons per minute, water to steam conversions, BTUs abosrbed and all that, but in the end, it adds up to "Does the fire go out?"

I've had a saying...simple questions, with simple answers, made complicated by simple minds. His question was a simple "Yes" or "No."
WarLord31  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 1:55:28 AM

Originally Posted By scottfire1957:
Originally Posted By WarLord31:
Of course its a simple question. And sure its a simple answer - OF COURSE, ITS ENOUGH!

But hey...if you have no clue about the bags, the material and engineering that went into its design, and the specs...

...you're wasting your money and making guys like me who make a living in that industry a whole lot more money because your just being a "&*$&#^%$" about it.

If you want an answer, which one do you want? The one from your local gun dealer selling LaRue , or the one from Mr. LaRue's technical support staff? Which one will give you the real deal?

Like I said, I don't give a hoot if you don't care about the math, science, etc. If you want me to give you a SPECIFIC ANSWER BASED ON EXACT APPLICATION, well, hey, sure...

I charge $130 per hour for consulting rates. (And I have been paid that high BTW for my consulting work. And I am busy enough to pass on folks like you.) Pay First!




That's cool and all, really. It is. BUT, all you had to say was "yes, your plan will work, but you can get by with smaller bags of whatever. No need to waste money."

It's kinda like when somebody asks me how I fight a fire. They may be wanting gallons per minute through the handline I use, or how long an air bottle will last on my airpack, stuff like that.

I just say "I take that hoseline in, spray some water, and hopefully, the fire will go out." There's all kinds of math behind gallons per minute, water to steam conversions, BTUs abosrbed and all that, but in the end, it adds up to "Does the fire go out?"

I've had a saying...simple questions, with simple answers, made complicated by simple minds. His question was a simple "Yes" or "No."

OK, Ok. I'l cool down here.

But as for fighting a fire...what you don't know is that I was a volunteer fireman for 14 years... on petroleum oil and gas fires, with and w/o foam. I know what you're talking about but to another fireman...when we "talk shop", we're assuming a bunch of things. Like that 60-minute Scott Airpak actually lasts only 45 minutes...and so on.

Yes, you're right about the saying "simple questions, with simple..." I agree. But here, to me, this is a service to fellow ARFCOM memebers and guests. I think we pride ourselves on good honest information on this site. On this particular subject, I intend to change the thinking and correct a bunch of wrong or bad info that's been put out there. Why? Because I put away $1000's worth of guns and gun parts (not ammo) using the best vacuum sealed bag, O2 Scavenger, and Dessicant technology at the time, and I've learned a lot from it. I guess if the post author wants to really know more, he can ask. If you want to know more, then ask. No $130/hour. Its free.
scottfire1957  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 2:02:38 AM
Originally Posted By WarLord31:

Originally Posted By scottfire1957:
Originally Posted By WarLord31:
Of course its a simple question. And sure its a simple answer - OF COURSE, ITS ENOUGH!

But hey...if you have no clue about the bags, the material and engineering that went into its design, and the specs...

...you're wasting your money and making guys like me who make a living in that industry a whole lot more money because your just being a "&*$&#^%$" about it.

If you want an answer, which one do you want? The one from your local gun dealer selling LaRue , or the one from Mr. LaRue's technical support staff? Which one will give you the real deal?

Like I said, I don't give a hoot if you don't care about the math, science, etc. If you want me to give you a SPECIFIC ANSWER BASED ON EXACT APPLICATION, well, hey, sure...

I charge $130 per hour for consulting rates. (And I have been paid that high BTW for my consulting work. And I am busy enough to pass on folks like you.) Pay First!




That's cool and all, really. It is. BUT, all you had to say was "yes, your plan will work, but you can get by with smaller bags of whatever. No need to waste money."

It's kinda like when somebody asks me how I fight a fire. They may be wanting gallons per minute through the handline I use, or how long an air bottle will last on my airpack, stuff like that.

I just say "I take that hoseline in, spray some water, and hopefully, the fire will go out." There's all kinds of math behind gallons per minute, water to steam conversions, BTUs abosrbed and all that, but in the end, it adds up to "Does the fire go out?"

I've had a saying...simple questions, with simple answers, made complicated by simple minds. His question was a simple "Yes" or "No."

OK, Ok. I'l cool down here.

But as for fighting a fire...what you don't know is that I was a volunteer fireman for 14 years... on petroleum oil and gas fires, with and w/o foam. I know what you're talking about but to antoher fireman...when we "talk shop", we're assuming a bunch of things. Like that 60-minute Scott Airpak actually lasta only 45 minutes...and so.


We're using ISI airpacks with 45 min bottles. I retire next year with 29 years OTJ. Thankfully, no refinery fire on my belt.




WarLord31  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 2:08:03 AM
Yes...God Bless...hopefully no refinery or tank fires. I've been to a bunch of call-outs, but thankfully nothing hugely serious. Actually, I never remember which Scott Airpak but its the newer "green" ones with 60 minutes (45 actual). The old yellow ones were 30 minutes but we used them for only 15 minutes.

Actually, hopefully no explosions. We both know that if we see a fire, at least we scan see where the exposures are and what to keep cool while the refinery operators empty or depressure the vessel. Its the hidden gas leaks that blow up that are the big worries. Thankfully, there's been none of that in recent memory. (Well, except for BP...this Gulf Platform and Tx City Refinery in 2005).

Man...I hope they keep that oil off your Louisiana shorelines. I'm gonna miss those oysters, shrimp, and crabs if it hits that!
scottfire1957  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 2:11:08 AM
Originally Posted By WarLord31:
Yes...God Bless...hopefully no refinery or tank fires. I've been to a bunch of call-outs, but thankfully nothing hugely serious. Actually, I never remember which Scott Airpak but its the newer "green" ones with 60 minutes (45 actual). The old yellow ones were 30 minutes but we used them for only 15 minutes.

Actually, hopefully no explosions. We both know that if we see a fire, at least we scan see where the exposures are and what to keep cool while the refinery operators empty or depressure the vessel. Its the hidden gas leaks that blow up that are the big worries. Thankfully, there's been none of that in recent memory. (Well, except for BP...this Gulf Platform and Tx City Refinery in 2005).

Man...I hope they keep that oil off your Louisiana shorelines. I'm gonna miss those oysters, shrimp, and crabs if it hits that!




I'm up in the Panhandle. If the gulf oil slick gets here, well, we're all in for a shit fit!

WarLord31  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 2:18:48 AM

Originally Posted By scottfire1957:
Originally Posted By WarLord31:
Yes...God Bless...hopefully no refinery or tank fires. I've been to a bunch of call-outs, but thankfully nothing hugely serious. Actually, I never remember which Scott Airpak but its the newer "green" ones with 60 minutes (45 actual). The old yellow ones were 30 minutes but we used them for only 15 minutes.

Actually, hopefully no explosions. We both know that if we see a fire, at least we scan see where the exposures are and what to keep cool while the refinery operators empty or depressure the vessel. Its the hidden gas leaks that blow up that are the big worries. Thankfully, there's been none of that in recent memory. (Well, except for BP...this Gulf Platform and Tx City Refinery in 2005).

Man...I hope they keep that oil off your Louisiana shorelines. I'm gonna miss those oysters, shrimp, and crabs if it hits that!




I'm up in the Panhandle. If the gulf oil slick gets here, well, we're all in for a shit fit!



OOPS! For some reason, I thought your membership read LA - Louisiana. Sorry about that...you're a fellow Texan! Well, hey there! Be safe! And if you do see that oil reach up there to you, then for sure I'm already sunk beneath it! I'm near Galveston Bay!
scottfire1957  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 2:24:15 AM
So, will the OP's plan work, or will it turn into a black hole, like I predicted?
WarLord31  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 2:34:47 AM

Originally Posted By scottfire1957:
So, will the OP's plan work, or will it turn into a black hole, like I predicted?


OK... I catch the drift.

BLACK HOLE.
WarLord31  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 6:18:51 PM
Excuse me scottfire1957... I just had to answer his question EXACTLY...

- 20x30 bags for 5gal pails was mentioned. Assume 20x30 bags will contain a volume of material of about 5gallons...

- 5gal plastic buckets are usually 5 Gallons US Liquid.

- 5 GAL US(LIQ) = exactly 18927.1 cubic centimeters (cc)

- Worst-case scenario for 20x30 bag is that its all air.

- Then 18927.1cc of air (which has 20% Oxygen) = 3785.4cc Pure Oxygen

3785.4cc of Oxygen (Worst-Case Scenario) - two 1500cc bags of Oxygen Scavenger (for a total of 3000cc of Oxygen removal) isn't enough if the material being stored has a lot of "void" space (for example, empty space from empty brass shell cases).

Also, it is safe to assume an 80% effectiveness of the Oxygen Scavenger. That is, O2 Scavenger Packets take a long trip between its freshly manufactured state to when it is finally deployed. Even Sorbent Systems stores their O2 Scvenger in different containers, from metal cans (best) to 3.5mil transparent plastic bags (worst). How long it sits in their inventory, or on your storage shelf determines how much O2 it can remove. So...


- 1500cc O2 Scavenger at 80% efficiency = 1200 cc Oxygen Removed.

- Using worst case scenario of 3785.4cc, you need at least three (3) 1500 cc Oxygen Scav bags per 20x30 bag & 5gal pail.

THIS is what you have to worry about more than the amount of Oxygen that can permeate thru the 5gal plastic pail, thru the 7.5mil Mylar PAKDRY7500 Bag Material, and into your stored product.

You need to give me what material you're storing so I can calcuate the "void space". I don't need to know the actual material. Tell me if its like marbles, what diameter, are they all consistent diameter and round shaped, and is it solid or porous material, etc... I can calculate the void space if the material is consistent, and come up with an exact amount of oxygen you need to remove and # of years it will stay oxygen-free.

Regards,

Warlord31
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