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I want to build a A2 and want a lower but with as little writing on it,
12/7/2011 1:21:23 AM
right now I have a FN A2 Upper and FN A2barrel, the other parts maybe colt, anyway of telling small parts are from? any way like I have in the subject need a lower with little to no writing on it,
thank you
thank you
12/7/2011 3:04:48 AM
McKay lower from NoDak Spud is probably your best bet in an A2 style lower.
12/7/2011 1:19:28 PM
They are temporarily sold out at the moment
http://www.nodakspud.com/newstuff.htm
http://www.nodakspud.com/newstuff.htm
12/7/2011 3:28:14 PM
Technically, those are M4 lowers not A2. M4 lowers have greater reinforcement areas around the takedown pins than the A2
12/7/2011 4:17:12 PM
Never heard of M4 lowers being different from A2 lowers. Can you show the difference between the two?
12/7/2011 6:06:46 PM
M4 lowers are the same thing as A2 lowers in terms of forging and what not.
I have noticed that the A2-style Colt 9mm SMG has slightly lesser receiver extension reinforcement.
I have noticed that the A2-style Colt 9mm SMG has slightly lesser receiver extension reinforcement.
12/8/2011 10:28:09 AM
I think what you guys are identifying as "A2" and "M4" lowers are just slight variations in the lower receiver forging of the "A2" style reinforcements that have occured over the years.
Since most M16A2s out there are older production, and most M4s that you see are newer, it wouldn't be too difficult to assume they were different, however, the different forgings were used for *all* configurations throughout production.
I'm still working on getting some good pictures of all the different variations and descriptions, but I'm not all the way there yet. I think at one point scottyryan claimed that there were five distinct "A2" style forgings, which may be correct, as I've been able to identify at least four. The differences are all subtle, but they are there.
If there's interest and maybe if Pezboyate and ThatGuy96 want to join in and help (I don't think Ekie comes around here much anymore) we can work on some variations reference guides like the ones in the Retro fourm for A1-style rifles.
The most noticeable variation is the receiver extension reinforcement area, earlier A2 lower forgings had a more "organic" looking transition on both sides where the threading is reinforced.
Early:
On the left side, you can see that the reinforcement "blends" to the lower. Compare to later forgings:
You can see the horizontal line where the reinforcements have been added is much more defined in the later forgings.
On the right side, the older style reinforcement kind of "bugles" about 2/3 of the way back on the takedown pin spring channel, looking almost "organic":
Looking at the same are on a recent forging, the takedown pin spring channel has been made "beefier" and the reinforcement has a shallow linear demarcation:
Another difference in the lower forgings is the profile of the pivot pin reinforcement area, the earliest A2 forgings had pivot pin reinforcements, but they still maintained an A1-"ish" profile with a sharp curve into the magwell (first photo), which was then changed to a more gradiual and radiused curve (second photo). Early "receiver extension boss" lowers could have both styles, and the modern lower still has the late radius.
Early Radius:
Late Radius:
The most difficult difference to spot is the shape of the mag fence area where the pivot pin spring channel meets the vertical "leg" of the mag fence, because it's usually covered by an open ejection port, and requires specific lighting to notice.
In the earliest A2 forgings, the mag fence meets the pivot pin channel, and there is a wide "flat" where they interface. Later forgings have the mag fence leg more tapered and coming to more of a "point" where it meets the pivot pin spring channel:
"Flat" Mag Fence:
"Pointed" Mag Fence:
Of these two mag fence variations, the "flat" mag fence shows up on both early and late radius lowers.
From what I've been able to see, the four variants I have identified are:
Type 1 - Early radius, flat mag fence, early receiver boss
Type 2 - Late radius, flat mag fence, early receiver boss
Type 3 - Late radius, pointed mag fence, early receiver boss
Type 4 - Late radius, pointed mag fence, late receiver boss
In terms of production dates, though I don't have specific dates yet - a couple things I have noticed:
Most "Large Pin" Sporters that have the full fence A2 lowers tend to have Type 1 or 2 receivers. Many of the transitional "small pin" Preban Sporters have them as well. I've seen very early M4A1 Carbines in SOF inventories that have Type 1 and/or 2 lowers, so they are "M4 era."
Many "ban era" MTs have Type 3 lowers - the "modern" or "Type 4" lower appears during the ban era, for example, I don't think I've ever seen a 6920 with anything other than a Type 4 lower, though I've seen 6520s and 6721s with different variant lowers with early receiver boss areas.
What would really help is if those of you with Colts of various vintages from the early 90's to the present day could check these features and post what you have and when it's from, so we can start pinning down some production dates.
~Augee
Since most M16A2s out there are older production, and most M4s that you see are newer, it wouldn't be too difficult to assume they were different, however, the different forgings were used for *all* configurations throughout production.
I'm still working on getting some good pictures of all the different variations and descriptions, but I'm not all the way there yet. I think at one point scottyryan claimed that there were five distinct "A2" style forgings, which may be correct, as I've been able to identify at least four. The differences are all subtle, but they are there.
If there's interest and maybe if Pezboyate and ThatGuy96 want to join in and help (I don't think Ekie comes around here much anymore) we can work on some variations reference guides like the ones in the Retro fourm for A1-style rifles.
The most noticeable variation is the receiver extension reinforcement area, earlier A2 lower forgings had a more "organic" looking transition on both sides where the threading is reinforced.
Early:
On the left side, you can see that the reinforcement "blends" to the lower. Compare to later forgings:
You can see the horizontal line where the reinforcements have been added is much more defined in the later forgings.
On the right side, the older style reinforcement kind of "bugles" about 2/3 of the way back on the takedown pin spring channel, looking almost "organic":
Looking at the same are on a recent forging, the takedown pin spring channel has been made "beefier" and the reinforcement has a shallow linear demarcation:
Another difference in the lower forgings is the profile of the pivot pin reinforcement area, the earliest A2 forgings had pivot pin reinforcements, but they still maintained an A1-"ish" profile with a sharp curve into the magwell (first photo), which was then changed to a more gradiual and radiused curve (second photo). Early "receiver extension boss" lowers could have both styles, and the modern lower still has the late radius.
Early Radius:
Late Radius:
The most difficult difference to spot is the shape of the mag fence area where the pivot pin spring channel meets the vertical "leg" of the mag fence, because it's usually covered by an open ejection port, and requires specific lighting to notice.
In the earliest A2 forgings, the mag fence meets the pivot pin channel, and there is a wide "flat" where they interface. Later forgings have the mag fence leg more tapered and coming to more of a "point" where it meets the pivot pin spring channel:
"Flat" Mag Fence:
"Pointed" Mag Fence:
Of these two mag fence variations, the "flat" mag fence shows up on both early and late radius lowers.
From what I've been able to see, the four variants I have identified are:
Type 1 - Early radius, flat mag fence, early receiver boss
Type 2 - Late radius, flat mag fence, early receiver boss
Type 3 - Late radius, pointed mag fence, early receiver boss
Type 4 - Late radius, pointed mag fence, late receiver boss
In terms of production dates, though I don't have specific dates yet - a couple things I have noticed:
Most "Large Pin" Sporters that have the full fence A2 lowers tend to have Type 1 or 2 receivers. Many of the transitional "small pin" Preban Sporters have them as well. I've seen very early M4A1 Carbines in SOF inventories that have Type 1 and/or 2 lowers, so they are "M4 era."
Many "ban era" MTs have Type 3 lowers - the "modern" or "Type 4" lower appears during the ban era, for example, I don't think I've ever seen a 6920 with anything other than a Type 4 lower, though I've seen 6520s and 6721s with different variant lowers with early receiver boss areas.
What would really help is if those of you with Colts of various vintages from the early 90's to the present day could check these features and post what you have and when it's from, so we can start pinning down some production dates.
~Augee
12/8/2011 4:24:11 PM
Originally Posted By tankerfrank:
right now I have a FN A2 Upper and FN A2barrel, the other parts maybe colt, anyway of telling small parts are from? any way like I have in the subject need a lower with little to no writing on it,
thank you
right now I have a FN A2 Upper and FN A2barrel, the other parts maybe colt, anyway of telling small parts are from? any way like I have in the subject need a lower with little to no writing on it,
thank you
how about these? he's a local here in tucson and i've bought a few of his lowers, very well made. they are milled from 6061billet but i think you can still get 7075 if say please. not the most "traditional" of AR lowers but certainly not overly engraved with the MFG's info.
DDLES lowers
you can see the MFG markings on the right side of the receiver here;
MFG marks
12/9/2011 12:32:49 AM
Originally Posted By Augee:
I think what you guys are identifying as "A2" and "M4" lowers are just slight variations in the lower receiver forging of the "A2" style reinforcements that have occured over the years.
Since most M16A2s out there are older production, and most M4s that you see are newer, it wouldn't be too difficult to assume they were different, however, the different forgings were used for *all* configurations throughout production.
I'm still working on getting some good pictures of all the different variations and descriptions, but I'm not all the way there yet. I think at one point scottyryan claimed that there were five distinct "A2" style forgings, which may be correct, as I've been able to identify at least four. The differences are all subtle, but they are there.
If there's interest and maybe if Pezboyate and ThatGuy96 want to join in and help (I don't think Ekie comes around here much anymore) we can work on some variations reference guides like the ones in the Retro fourm for A1-style rifles.
The most noticeable variation is the receiver extension reinforcement area, earlier A2 lower forgings had a more "organic" looking transition on both sides where the threading is reinforced.
Early:
http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr23/hoverflt/m16a2d2.jpg
On the left side, you can see that the reinforcement "blends" to the lower. Compare to later forgings:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2650/guns3007rs1.jpg
You can see the horizontal line where the reinforcements have been added is much more defined in the later forgings.
On the right side, the older style reinforcement kind of "bugles" about 2/3 of the way back on the takedown pin spring channel, looking almost "organic":
http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr23/hoverflt/m16a2c.jpg
Looking at the same are on a recent forging, the takedown pin spring channel has been made "beefier" and the reinforcement has a shallow linear demarcation:
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/8015/middieright.jpg
Another difference in the lower forgings is the profile of the pivot pin reinforcement area, the earliest A2 forgings had pivot pin reinforcements, but they still maintained an A1-"ish" profile with a sharp curve into the magwell (first photo), which was then changed to a more gradiual and radiused curve (second photo). Early "receiver extension boss" lowers could have both styles, and the modern lower still has the late radius.
Early Radius:
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos10/apr/3240m16d.jpg
Late Radius:
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos11/mar/vk242m16b.jpg
The most difficult difference to spot is the shape of the mag fence area where the pivot pin spring channel meets the vertical "leg" of the mag fence, because it's usually covered by an open ejection port, and requires specific lighting to notice.
In the earliest A2 forgings, the mag fence meets the pivot pin channel, and there is a wide "flat" where they interface. Later forgings have the mag fence leg more tapered and coming to more of a "point" where it meets the pivot pin spring channel:
"Flat" Mag Fence:
http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr23/hoverflt/m16a2c.jpg
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos10/apr/3240m16m.jpg
"Pointed" Mag Fence:
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos11/jan/vk227m16e.jpg
Of these two mag fence variations, the "flat" mag fence shows up on both early and late radius lowers.
From what I've been able to see, the four variants I have identified are:
Type 1 - Early radius, flat mag fence, early receiver boss
Type 2 - Late radius, flat mag fence, early receiver boss
Type 3 - Late radius, pointed mag fence, early receiver boss
Type 4 - Late radius, pointed mag fence, late receiver boss
In terms of production dates, though I don't have specific dates yet - a couple things I have noticed:
Most "Large Pin" Sporters that have the full fence A2 lowers tend to have Type 1 or 2 receivers. Many of the transitional "small pin" Preban Sporters have them as well. I've seen very early M4A1 Carbines in SOF inventories that have Type 1 and/or 2 lowers, so they are "M4 era."
Many "ban era" MTs have Type 3 lowers - the "modern" or "Type 4" lower appears during the ban era, for example, I don't think I've ever seen a 6920 with anything other than a Type 4 lower, though I've seen 6520s and 6721s with different variant lowers with early receiver boss areas.
What would really help is if those of you with Colts of various vintages from the early 90's to the present day could check these features and post what you have and when it's from, so we can start pinning down some production dates.
~Augee
I think what you guys are identifying as "A2" and "M4" lowers are just slight variations in the lower receiver forging of the "A2" style reinforcements that have occured over the years.
Since most M16A2s out there are older production, and most M4s that you see are newer, it wouldn't be too difficult to assume they were different, however, the different forgings were used for *all* configurations throughout production.
I'm still working on getting some good pictures of all the different variations and descriptions, but I'm not all the way there yet. I think at one point scottyryan claimed that there were five distinct "A2" style forgings, which may be correct, as I've been able to identify at least four. The differences are all subtle, but they are there.
If there's interest and maybe if Pezboyate and ThatGuy96 want to join in and help (I don't think Ekie comes around here much anymore) we can work on some variations reference guides like the ones in the Retro fourm for A1-style rifles.
The most noticeable variation is the receiver extension reinforcement area, earlier A2 lower forgings had a more "organic" looking transition on both sides where the threading is reinforced.
Early:
http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr23/hoverflt/m16a2d2.jpg
On the left side, you can see that the reinforcement "blends" to the lower. Compare to later forgings:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2650/guns3007rs1.jpg
You can see the horizontal line where the reinforcements have been added is much more defined in the later forgings.
On the right side, the older style reinforcement kind of "bugles" about 2/3 of the way back on the takedown pin spring channel, looking almost "organic":
http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr23/hoverflt/m16a2c.jpg
Looking at the same are on a recent forging, the takedown pin spring channel has been made "beefier" and the reinforcement has a shallow linear demarcation:
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/8015/middieright.jpg
Another difference in the lower forgings is the profile of the pivot pin reinforcement area, the earliest A2 forgings had pivot pin reinforcements, but they still maintained an A1-"ish" profile with a sharp curve into the magwell (first photo), which was then changed to a more gradiual and radiused curve (second photo). Early "receiver extension boss" lowers could have both styles, and the modern lower still has the late radius.
Early Radius:
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos10/apr/3240m16d.jpg
Late Radius:
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos11/mar/vk242m16b.jpg
The most difficult difference to spot is the shape of the mag fence area where the pivot pin spring channel meets the vertical "leg" of the mag fence, because it's usually covered by an open ejection port, and requires specific lighting to notice.
In the earliest A2 forgings, the mag fence meets the pivot pin channel, and there is a wide "flat" where they interface. Later forgings have the mag fence leg more tapered and coming to more of a "point" where it meets the pivot pin spring channel:
"Flat" Mag Fence:
http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr23/hoverflt/m16a2c.jpg
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos10/apr/3240m16m.jpg
"Pointed" Mag Fence:
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos11/jan/vk227m16e.jpg
Of these two mag fence variations, the "flat" mag fence shows up on both early and late radius lowers.
From what I've been able to see, the four variants I have identified are:
Type 1 - Early radius, flat mag fence, early receiver boss
Type 2 - Late radius, flat mag fence, early receiver boss
Type 3 - Late radius, pointed mag fence, early receiver boss
Type 4 - Late radius, pointed mag fence, late receiver boss
In terms of production dates, though I don't have specific dates yet - a couple things I have noticed:
Most "Large Pin" Sporters that have the full fence A2 lowers tend to have Type 1 or 2 receivers. Many of the transitional "small pin" Preban Sporters have them as well. I've seen very early M4A1 Carbines in SOF inventories that have Type 1 and/or 2 lowers, so they are "M4 era."
Many "ban era" MTs have Type 3 lowers - the "modern" or "Type 4" lower appears during the ban era, for example, I don't think I've ever seen a 6920 with anything other than a Type 4 lower, though I've seen 6520s and 6721s with different variant lowers with early receiver boss areas.
What would really help is if those of you with Colts of various vintages from the early 90's to the present day could check these features and post what you have and when it's from, so we can start pinning down some production dates.
~Augee
Thanks for the clarification Augee...I assumed the later revisions coincided with M4 production. Interesting to see that there are in fact 4 distinct iterations of the A2 lower forging.
12/9/2011 1:12:27 AM
Thanks Augee––you hit on exactly what I was thinking but failed to state properly. A post-sample my part-time boss has at the shop is a late-80s 9mm lower, and it has all the early A2 features.
12/9/2011 10:11:05 AM
Augee, why don't you start another thread with your lay-down so people can do like you suggested in posting info on their receivers so we can start to narrow down when the changes happened.
I'll get pics of my 2 Colts, one is either a type 1 or 2 and the other is probably a type 4
And back to the orginal post, the McKay is about as simple as you can get.
I'll get pics of my 2 Colts, one is either a type 1 or 2 and the other is probably a type 4
And back to the orginal post, the McKay is about as simple as you can get.
