Archived Posts » 60,595,333
BANG, BANG, click......BANG. BANG, click
5/29/2012 10:36:45 PM
The oldest of my AR's is a RRA 20", 1/9, CMV flat top which I bought as a complete upper, and at that time was the cheapest 20" RRA you could buy at the time. It has served me very, very well over the years. So in getting it ready for a big hunt, as I was tearing it down, I noticed several things that needed attention.
1. The bolt looked dangerous to me, so I replaced that. I already knew it was bad.
2. Even with the new bolt, it barely passed the bolt drop test, so I put a new carrier in it.
3. I even changed out the buffer spring, just because.
I thought I was GTG, however upon field testing it this problem came up. I always lock the bolt back when I change mags, and also if a round doesn't chamber, I follow the same routine so I can visually see if it chambers a round (just an old habit of mine). The problem is that it will fire 2 rounds, then fails to chamber the 3rd round. I can chamber it manually with the charging handle, and it will chamber, and fire that round, plus it will automatically chamber, and fire the now 2nd round. But when I get to the 3rd round AGAIN, it won't chamber, just click.
I've tried different mags, and ammo, all with the above results, 2 rounds chamber and fire, but nothing but a "click" on the 3rd round. I've scrubbed it down numerous times, and no change. I even did something that I've NEVER done with an AR, and that was to clean the gas system (out of desparation)
This upper hasn't been used in a couple of years, BUT I did prep it for storage very well, and would visually check it pretty often to see if I could see any problems were starting to occur. I never saw anything, except for the bolt, which I knew was going to have to be replaced.
This upper has thousands of rounds thru it, and when it is working, it works, it works very well, and is still very accurate, even with all the rounds I've put thru it.
I'm out of ideas !!!!! Any of you guys have any idea what's causing this ?
TIA
Bang-Flop
1. The bolt looked dangerous to me, so I replaced that. I already knew it was bad.
2. Even with the new bolt, it barely passed the bolt drop test, so I put a new carrier in it.
3. I even changed out the buffer spring, just because.
I thought I was GTG, however upon field testing it this problem came up. I always lock the bolt back when I change mags, and also if a round doesn't chamber, I follow the same routine so I can visually see if it chambers a round (just an old habit of mine). The problem is that it will fire 2 rounds, then fails to chamber the 3rd round. I can chamber it manually with the charging handle, and it will chamber, and fire that round, plus it will automatically chamber, and fire the now 2nd round. But when I get to the 3rd round AGAIN, it won't chamber, just click.
I've tried different mags, and ammo, all with the above results, 2 rounds chamber and fire, but nothing but a "click" on the 3rd round. I've scrubbed it down numerous times, and no change. I even did something that I've NEVER done with an AR, and that was to clean the gas system (out of desparation)
This upper hasn't been used in a couple of years, BUT I did prep it for storage very well, and would visually check it pretty often to see if I could see any problems were starting to occur. I never saw anything, except for the bolt, which I knew was going to have to be replaced.
This upper has thousands of rounds thru it, and when it is working, it works, it works very well, and is still very accurate, even with all the rounds I've put thru it.
I'm out of ideas !!!!! Any of you guys have any idea what's causing this ?
TIA
Bang-Flop
5/29/2012 10:55:19 PM
Most likely is a gas issue, since you just replaced the bolt and carrier.
Is the carrier key tight and staked properly?
Does the gas tube enter the carrier key freely without binding or bending?
Does the bolt lock back on an empty mag when you load a single round and fire it? (testing for undergassed condition).
Is the carrier key tight and staked properly?
Does the gas tube enter the carrier key freely without binding or bending?
Does the bolt lock back on an empty mag when you load a single round and fire it? (testing for undergassed condition).
5/29/2012 11:46:41 PM
Originally Posted By Bang-Flop:
1. The bolt looked dangerous to me, so I replaced that. I already knew it was bad.
2. Even with the new bolt, it barely passed the bolt drop test, so I put a new carrier in it.
1. The bolt looked dangerous to me, so I replaced that. I already knew it was bad.
2. Even with the new bolt, it barely passed the bolt drop test, so I put a new carrier in it.
1.How do you know it was bad, Had an entire lug cracked off or something. Truth is, a bolt will over outlast a barrel for the most part, and see no mention of either a high enough round count to justify replacing the B/C, or stated what was wrong with the bolt to require it's replacement in the first place.
2. You have totally lost me on this one. If the bolt will not stay up in the carrier when the carrier is rotated to point the bolt downward, you just replace the gas rings at like a buck, not the entire bolt.
So lets try this, put the old B/C back in the rifle and fire for effect. If the rifle runs, then mix match the two bolts and carriers, and see which one of these is the part causing problems.
5/29/2012 11:50:45 PM
Originally Posted By Bang-Flop:
I can chamber it manually with the charging handle, and it will chamber, and fire that round, plus it will automatically chamber, and fire the now 2nd round. But when I get to the 3rd round AGAIN, it won't chamber, just click.
I can chamber it manually with the charging handle, and it will chamber, and fire that round, plus it will automatically chamber, and fire the now 2nd round. But when I get to the 3rd round AGAIN, it won't chamber, just click.
From what I'm reading it sound like you are getting double firing with one trigger pull, is that correct?
5/30/2012 12:28:50 AM
Originally Posted By Circuits:
Most likely is a gas issue, since you just replaced the bolt and carrier.
Is the carrier key tight and staked properly?
Does the gas tube enter the carrier key freely without binding or bending?
Does the bolt lock back on an empty mag when you load a single round and fire it? (testing for undergassed condition).
Most likely is a gas issue, since you just replaced the bolt and carrier.
Is the carrier key tight and staked properly?
Does the gas tube enter the carrier key freely without binding or bending?
Does the bolt lock back on an empty mag when you load a single round and fire it? (testing for undergassed condition).
Key is tight, and staked properly.
No binding on gas tube when it enters the carrier tube.
The majority of the time it will lock back on empty mag, but not always. I would as locks back about 2/3 of the time, the other 1/3 it won't lock back.
5/30/2012 12:53:44 AM
Originally Posted By Dano523:
1.How do you know it was bad, Had an entire lug cracked off or something. Truth is, a bolt will over outlast a barrel for the most part, and see no mention of either a high enough round count to justify replacing the B/C, or stated what was wrong with the bolt to require it's replacement in the first place.
2. You have totally lost me on this one. If the bolt will not stay up in the carrier when the carrier is rotated to point the bolt downward, you just replace the gas rings at like a buck, not the entire bolt.
So lets try this, put the old B/C back in the rifle and fire for effect. If the rifle runs, then mix match the two bolts and carriers, and see which one of these is the part causing problems.
Originally Posted By Bang-Flop:
1. The bolt looked dangerous to me, so I replaced that. I already knew it was bad.
2. Even with the new bolt, it barely passed the bolt drop test, so I put a new carrier in it.
1. The bolt looked dangerous to me, so I replaced that. I already knew it was bad.
2. Even with the new bolt, it barely passed the bolt drop test, so I put a new carrier in it.
1.How do you know it was bad, Had an entire lug cracked off or something. Truth is, a bolt will over outlast a barrel for the most part, and see no mention of either a high enough round count to justify replacing the B/C, or stated what was wrong with the bolt to require it's replacement in the first place.
2. You have totally lost me on this one. If the bolt will not stay up in the carrier when the carrier is rotated to point the bolt downward, you just replace the gas rings at like a buck, not the entire bolt.
So lets try this, put the old B/C back in the rifle and fire for effect. If the rifle runs, then mix match the two bolts and carriers, and see which one of these is the part causing problems.
The bolt overall had a "egg" shape to it, and the firing pin hole was wallowed out, also having an "egg" shape to it. Way too much slop in the firing pin hole to boot. I'm going to try some kind of "straight edged" test to rule out a slightly bent firing pin, though to the naked eye it looks fine.
Trying new rings was the very first thing I tried, even though I was going to replace the bolt anyway due to the above described conditions. I figured as bad as the bolt looked it's days were definitely numbered, and the price of a bolt I considered cheap insurance on possibly damaging something else on this rifle !!!!! I was actually scared to test fire with that bolt, but I went ahead and test fired it anyway, with a "pucker factor" of 10.
Swapping bolt, carriers, etc. I tried already. I've swapped bolts, carriers, and the combination of the two till I've run out of things to swap.
Thanks for the good suggestions.
Bang-Flop
5/30/2012 1:01:41 AM
Originally Posted By Espos1111:
From what I'm reading it sound like you are getting double firing with one trigger pull, is that correct?
Originally Posted By Bang-Flop:
I can chamber it manually with the charging handle, and it will chamber, and fire that round, plus it will automatically chamber, and fire the now 2nd round. But when I get to the 3rd round AGAIN, it won't chamber, just click.
I can chamber it manually with the charging handle, and it will chamber, and fire that round, plus it will automatically chamber, and fire the now 2nd round. But when I get to the 3rd round AGAIN, it won't chamber, just click.
From what I'm reading it sound like you are getting double firing with one trigger pull, is that correct?
Negative on the double bump. After firing the 2nd shot, I could leave that AR set for an hour, and the results would still be the same, plus I'm using splatter targets, so 10 rounds loaded in the mag results in 10 holes in the target, and I pretty well know which shot was my last one, as I can usually see it thru the scope.
Bang-Flop
5/30/2012 5:13:27 AM
Bang-Flop, you are lubing the piss out of the new B/C to allow it to mate in, correct?
As for the bolt swaps, just wanted to weed that out as the problem; being that with the new bolt, the barrel is not no head spacing too tight.
As for the bolt swaps, just wanted to weed that out as the problem; being that with the new bolt, the barrel is not no head spacing too tight.
5/30/2012 6:15:33 AM
Originally Posted By Dano523:
Bang-Flop, you are lubing the piss out of the new B/C to allow it to mate in, correct?
As for the bolt swaps, just wanted to weed that out as the problem; being that with the new bolt, the barrel is not no head spacing too tight.
Bang-Flop, you are lubing the piss out of the new B/C to allow it to mate in, correct?
As for the bolt swaps, just wanted to weed that out as the problem; being that with the new bolt, the barrel is not no head spacing too tight.
I run all my AR's very wet, even after they're broken in. We get lots of days that are 100 degrees, or 100+ degrees, so running them wet is a necessity.
Good question though !!!!!
Thanks,
B-F
5/30/2012 9:56:25 AM
Have you put all of the old parts back in and test fired the rifle?
If you do this and it runs ok, then start swapping out things one at a time.
Just to be sure I have the sequence of events right:
1. Round 1 is chambered by releasing the charging handle.
2. Pull trigger, bang.
3. Round 1 extracts and ejects properly.
4. Round 2 chambers.
5. Pull trigger, bang.
6. Round 2 extracts and ejects properly.
7. Round 3 is not stripped from the magazine, the bolt closes on an empty chamber. Round 3 is now sitting in the magazine under the closed bolt.
8. Pull trigger, click.
9. Operate charging handle, round 3 chambers.
10. Pull trigger, bang.
11. Round 3 extracts and ejects properly.
12. Round 4 chambers.
13. Pull trigger, bang.
14. Round 4 extracts and ejects properly.
15. Round 5 is not stripped from the magazine, the bolt closes on an empty chamber. Round 5 is now sitting in the magazine under the closed bolt.
16. Pull trigger, click.
17. Operate charging handle, round 5 chambers.
10. Pull trigger, bang.
11. Round 5 extracts and ejects properly.
and so on.
So the rounds that don't chamber are all from one stack in the magazine?
If you're loading 30 in a 30 round magazine, try loading 29. See if the same pattern happens, but on the other stack in the mag. IOW on the first rounds out do you get bang, bang, click, or bang, click?
If you do this and it runs ok, then start swapping out things one at a time.
Just to be sure I have the sequence of events right:
1. Round 1 is chambered by releasing the charging handle.
2. Pull trigger, bang.
3. Round 1 extracts and ejects properly.
4. Round 2 chambers.
5. Pull trigger, bang.
6. Round 2 extracts and ejects properly.
7. Round 3 is not stripped from the magazine, the bolt closes on an empty chamber. Round 3 is now sitting in the magazine under the closed bolt.
8. Pull trigger, click.
9. Operate charging handle, round 3 chambers.
10. Pull trigger, bang.
11. Round 3 extracts and ejects properly.
12. Round 4 chambers.
13. Pull trigger, bang.
14. Round 4 extracts and ejects properly.
15. Round 5 is not stripped from the magazine, the bolt closes on an empty chamber. Round 5 is now sitting in the magazine under the closed bolt.
16. Pull trigger, click.
17. Operate charging handle, round 5 chambers.
10. Pull trigger, bang.
11. Round 5 extracts and ejects properly.
and so on.
So the rounds that don't chamber are all from one stack in the magazine?
If you're loading 30 in a 30 round magazine, try loading 29. See if the same pattern happens, but on the other stack in the mag. IOW on the first rounds out do you get bang, bang, click, or bang, click?
5/30/2012 3:04:36 PM
sergtjim,
Yes you've got it down. IIRC it always seems that if you're looking at the BACK of a loaded mag, that it always fed better from the right side, and that would also make you correct in that the non firing rounds are from one side of the mag.
I'm loading 10 rounds in a 20 round mag.
So many of the pieces, and parts are unmarked, that I doubt I could even get the correct carrier back in the proper upper. PLUS, there's NO WAY I'm firing that bolt again. It was very scary enough the first time. Did you miss my "pucker factor of 10"comment I made in one of my earlier posts ? I've been shooting AR's for several years now,
and this was the first time I was actually afraid to pull the trigger on one !!!!!!
But congrats on putting my dilemma into better words than I did !!!!!!
Tonight I plan on working up some more test loads, and trying a different powder(s). Maybe that will do it.
Thanks for the input
B-F
Yes you've got it down. IIRC it always seems that if you're looking at the BACK of a loaded mag, that it always fed better from the right side, and that would also make you correct in that the non firing rounds are from one side of the mag.
I'm loading 10 rounds in a 20 round mag.
So many of the pieces, and parts are unmarked, that I doubt I could even get the correct carrier back in the proper upper. PLUS, there's NO WAY I'm firing that bolt again. It was very scary enough the first time. Did you miss my "pucker factor of 10"comment I made in one of my earlier posts ? I've been shooting AR's for several years now,
and this was the first time I was actually afraid to pull the trigger on one !!!!!!
But congrats on putting my dilemma into better words than I did !!!!!!
Tonight I plan on working up some more test loads, and trying a different powder(s). Maybe that will do it.
Thanks for the input
B-F
5/30/2012 3:45:47 PM
Working up more test loads? So you are trying to diagnose all of this with reloads?
5/30/2012 4:06:25 PM
so what are your specs for reloads?
5/30/2012 4:15:54 PM
Originally Posted By CA_TX-Cop:
Working up more test loads? So you are trying to diagnose all of this with reloads?
Working up more test loads? So you are trying to diagnose all of this with reloads?
ABSOLUTELY !!!!! The round will either fire, or go "click", and the pattern of malfunction has never changed so far.
B-F
5/30/2012 4:25:58 PM
Originally Posted By Obo2:
so what are your specs for reloads?
so what are your specs for reloads?
Once fired processed brass, already primed with CCI 400's. 24 grains of Data 68 pushing a Speer 50 gr. TNT Varmit bullet. Been running this combination since the upper was new.
B-F
5/30/2012 4:26:31 PM
I'm new here so bare with me. If the bolt only locks back 2/3 of the time on last round it would seem a lack of bolt travel is the culprit. The OP stated he changed the buffer spring. Could it be his "pet" handload is too light for this fresh spring where it worked fine with the old one? Or could the problem be the new buffer spring not being the right one?
5/30/2012 4:34:16 PM
so 1 round in the mag fire does bolt lock back?
if it does that pretty much rules out a gas problem.
I'd be pretty weary of using brass that i didn't process and prime myself but i don't really think this is your issue.
How about mags trying different mags? may just be a worn out mag spring and it's not recovering fast enough
ETA: sorry missed the locks back 2/3 your definately having a short stroking issue swap back to the old buffer spring
if it does that pretty much rules out a gas problem.
I'd be pretty weary of using brass that i didn't process and prime myself but i don't really think this is your issue.
How about mags trying different mags? may just be a worn out mag spring and it's not recovering fast enough
ETA: sorry missed the locks back 2/3 your definately having a short stroking issue swap back to the old buffer spring
5/30/2012 4:35:52 PM
Originally Posted By Motor1:
I'm new here so bare with me. If the bolt only locks back 2/3 of the time on last round it would seem a lack of bolt travel is the culprit. The OP stated he changed the buffer spring. Could it be his "pet" handload is too light for this fresh spring where it worked fine with the old one? Or could the problem be the new buffer spring not being the right one?
I'm new here so bare with me. If the bolt only locks back 2/3 of the time on last round it would seem a lack of bolt travel is the culprit. The OP stated he changed the buffer spring. Could it be his "pet" handload is too light for this fresh spring where it worked fine with the old one? Or could the problem be the new buffer spring not being the right one?
This guy is on to something...
5/30/2012 5:44:31 PM
Originally Posted By Motor1:
I'm new here so bare with me. If the bolt only locks back 2/3 of the time on last round it would seem a lack of bolt travel is the culprit. The OP stated he changed the buffer spring. Could it be his "pet" handload is too light for this fresh spring where it worked fine with the old one? Or could the problem be the new buffer spring not being the right one?
I'm new here so bare with me. If the bolt only locks back 2/3 of the time on last round it would seem a lack of bolt travel is the culprit. The OP stated he changed the buffer spring. Could it be his "pet" handload is too light for this fresh spring where it worked fine with the old one? Or could the problem be the new buffer spring not being the right one?
Let me be one of the first to welcome you to ArfCom. This site is chock full of extremely valuable information, and not just the AR-15 / M-16 either. There's a multitude of firearms covered on this site. And this site is also chock full of BIG EGOS which I'm sure you will find out quickly if you decide to hang around (which I encourage you to do). Thankfully the BIG EGOS are in the minority, and not the majority, and the majority will genuinely try and help you. Just don't try and BS someone, because I can guarantee you that you'll get caught. If you don't know the answer, it's best to not say anything, or just say "I don't know". That's my "pet advice" of the day.
You've got the sequence backwards though. It's always the third round where the "click"occurs, and then sometimes the bolt catch will catch and hold the bolt back, and sometimes it won't, and obviously it has to be the last round in the mag.
Initially I had installed a Tubbs flatwire buffer spring, because they've worked very well for me. I use his flatwire buffer springs in all my AR's. On the first outing the malfunction started, so when I got home I removed the flatwire spring, and installed what I thought was the original round wire spring.
Not much danger of getting the wrong flatwire buffer spring, as he only makes one for the AR-15 / M-16 family of firearms. Since you're new here, take a moment and watch his video. Here's the URL: http://www.davidtubb.com/ar-15-buffer-spring-fits-both-carbine-and-std
Lots of good info in the video, and well worth the small amount of time it takes to watch it !!!!!!
Hope to see your user name more and more as time goes on.
B-F
5/30/2012 6:15:01 PM
Originally Posted By Obo2:
so 1 round in the mag fire does bolt lock back?
if it does that pretty much rules out a gas problem.
I'd be pretty weary of using brass that i didn't process and prime myself but i don't really think this is your issue.
How about mags trying different mags? may just be a worn out mag spring and it's not recovering fast enough
ETA: sorry missed the locks back 2/3 your definately having a short stroking issue swap back to the old buffer spring
so 1 round in the mag fire does bolt lock back?
if it does that pretty much rules out a gas problem.
I'd be pretty weary of using brass that i didn't process and prime myself but i don't really think this is your issue.
How about mags trying different mags? may just be a worn out mag spring and it's not recovering fast enough
ETA: sorry missed the locks back 2/3 your definately having a short stroking issue swap back to the old buffer spring
Bolt locks back most of the time, but not always.
I should have posted this much earlier in this thread, that I tried a multitude of mags, so I apologize for that oversight. I tried new Brownells CS sprung NHMTG mags, USGI mags that I had put Tubbs overhaul kits in, and just for fun I tried some 40 year old USGI mags that nothing had been done to (at least by me). All mags are 20 rounders.
B-F
5/30/2012 8:24:38 PM
Ok, reposting this since it coming down to the round not feeding from one side of the mag.
Lets take a look at two areas,
First, is the threaded section of the mag release flush with the face of the button?
Did the old bolt have this same problem, or just the new bolt (you have tried the new bolt in the old carrier, correct)?
Lets take a look at two areas,
First, is the threaded section of the mag release flush with the face of the button?
Did the old bolt have this same problem, or just the new bolt (you have tried the new bolt in the old carrier, correct)?
5/30/2012 11:07:34 PM
Quote:You've got the sequence backwards though. It's always the third round where the "click"occurs, and then sometimes the bolt catch will catch and hold the bolt back, and sometimes it won't, and obviously it has to be the last round in the mag.
I don't think It had the sequence wrong. You said the rifle fails to feed (every 3rd round) and sometimes lets the bolt fall after the last round. Usually when something that has been working stops working after you make changes it best to look at the changes made first. That is why I posted about the buffer spring. My reference to "pet" handload was not intended to offend. I don't think my AR has ever seen a factory loaded round and I have several "PET" handloads loads.
I don't think It had the sequence wrong. You said the rifle fails to feed (every 3rd round) and sometimes lets the bolt fall after the last round. Usually when something that has been working stops working after you make changes it best to look at the changes made first. That is why I posted about the buffer spring. My reference to "pet" handload was not intended to offend. I don't think my AR has ever seen a factory loaded round and I have several "PET" handloads loads.
5/31/2012 11:16:39 AM
Your load combo has the lowest pressure listed in the Accurate load data for the C.U.P. measured .223 loads, plus you reduced it by 1.5 grains. Might need more pressure.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DP68.pdf
You should try some Lake City .223 or 5.56 ammo (depending upon what chamber you have) and see if it works or not.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DP68.pdf
You should try some Lake City .223 or 5.56 ammo (depending upon what chamber you have) and see if it works or not.
6/3/2012 12:42:15 AM
Originally Posted By Motor1:
My reference to "pet" handload was not intended to offend. I don't think my AR has ever seen a factory loaded round and I have several "PET" handloads loads.
My reference to "pet" handload was not intended to offend. I don't think my AR has ever seen a factory loaded round and I have several "PET" handloads loads.
You didn't offend me at all. I was just "digging" at you a little bit with you being the new guy etc. I think any good reloader should have pet loads for each of his weapons.
Bang-Flop
6/3/2012 10:35:23 PM
Ditto ammo. Not having the same issues though. I'm going to hook a bottle of nitrous oxide up to mine and see what happens.
Shannon
Shannon
