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Former Warsaw Pact countries that signed with NATO question about AK's and ammo
5/31/2012 10:35:31 AM
So if the NATO standard is 5.56mm and i'm assuming its SS109 type ammo does that mean whoever has joined NATO needs to convert their AK's to 5.56? And do they have to use SS109?
5/31/2012 11:05:34 AM
Originally Posted By mrcuervo:
So if the NATO standard is 5.56mm and i'm assuming its SS109 type ammo does that mean whoever has joined NATO needs to convert their AK's to 5.56? And do they have to use SS109?
So if the NATO standard is 5.56mm and i'm assuming its SS109 type ammo does that mean whoever has joined NATO needs to convert their AK's to 5.56? And do they have to use SS109?
Actually... no. And no.
Initially we were thinking that we must use NATO round, but after we joined NATO we found out that.... nobody gives a damn about it. But we already had 5.56 rifle ready, so we adopted it anyway (but stopped plans to adopt STANG 4179 magazine). We also have our own 5.56 round with bullet that is equivalent of SS109, but it is not SS109. Polish Beryls use 1/9" twist to as universal for both 3.6g and 4.0g bullets.
We still use 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R in rear (garrison) units, slowly replacing old AKM and AKMS with Beryl and PKM with UKM-2000 (7.62x51). What we did, when were going to join NATO, we completely canceled transformation to 5.45x39 round (and wz. 88 Tantal), because it just started, so it was cheaper to cancel it, than to have 3 rounds in use. But 7.62x39 is still used until remaining stock or rifles and ammo will dry.
5.56 is standard for our Special Forces Command, but lately SFC units that were still using Beryls, replaced them with HK416
Usually regular soldiers that are issued AKM/AKMS, when preparing for mission, have time to train with 5.56 Beryl and use Beryl on mission.
5/31/2012 12:19:50 PM
Strange that so many countries are going with the HK416 when there are cheaper alternatives that are just as good if not better. I remeber reading that Norway were having problems with their 416 recievers cracking due to their cold winters!
5/31/2012 2:23:46 PM
Originally Posted By poorman:
Strange that so many countries are going with the HK416 when there are cheaper alternatives that are just as good if not better. I remeber reading that Norway were having problems with their 416 recievers cracking due to their cold winters!
Strange that so many countries are going with the HK416 when there are cheaper alternatives that are just as good if not better. I remeber reading that Norway were having problems with their 416 recievers cracking due to their cold winters!
And the rails were falling off, and the gas selector was coming out of position
5/31/2012 2:26:17 PM
Originally Posted By poorman:
Strange that so many countries are going with the HK416 when there are cheaper alternatives that are just as good if not better. I remeber reading that Norway were having problems with their 416 recievers cracking due to their cold winters!
Strange that so many countries are going with the HK416 when there are cheaper alternatives that are just as good if not better. I remeber reading that Norway were having problems with their 416 recievers cracking due to their cold winters!
Better marketing with H&K?
Imagine how much those countries could save if they bought Stag?
6/1/2012 8:22:10 AM
Originally Posted By poorman:
Strange that so many countries are going with the HK416 when there are cheaper alternatives that are just as good if not better. I remeber reading that Norway were having problems with their 416 recievers cracking due to their cold winters!
Strange that so many countries are going with the HK416 when there are cheaper alternatives that are just as good if not better. I remeber reading that Norway were having problems with their 416 recievers cracking due to their cold winters!
There are not cheaper and better or even as good alternatives. Please remember that most of so called "HK416-killers" are unproven designs from small and not experienced manufacturers. No serious force can depend on that. This leaves only SCAR and SR-16 as any alternatives to HK416 - both being more expensive and no better.
Also supposed Norway problems are actually Internet hoax, nothing more (some created by single soldier, who wanted to blame his negligence on equipment).
There were 2 problems in Norway. One was ammo related, but HK cured it with no need to change ammo. Second one was because Norway Army banned cleaning of AGR, while HK required cleaning of AGR as part of normal field cleaning. No low temperature related problems.
There are US (NSW) units that can use anything in the world if they want, yet they use HK416. Marketing?
In Poland case, GROM started with Bushmaster M4A3, then replaced it with KAC SR-16 and finally replaced it with HK416 several years ago. Other SOF units either used Beryls and Mini Beryls or HK G36 (maritime SOF unit). Units that used Beryls are now using HK416, while FORMOZA keeps G36 as better for maritime operations (even with OTB package HK416 is not as good in/under water as G36).
BTW This Stag remark is funny. We had batch of overpressured ammo from Fiocchi here. My HK just cycled violently on it. Stag got blown up. My HK also lived trough shooting lodged bullet (squib) by next one, like nothing happened (broken firing pin retainer and damaged muzzle device, but rifle did not skip a beat).
BTW2 In my (biased) opinion Beryl and Mini Beryl is best 5.56 "AK" in production and only one that is battle proven on large scale (Iraq and A-stan). Current form of modernized Beryl (called wz. 96/06) is result of experience from both missions.
6/1/2012 8:51:22 AM
Nice post. There's a lot of hate directed at the 416, mainly by fanboys of smaller companies that, as you said, don't have the experience to make weapons for seriously heavy use.
6/1/2012 10:04:49 AM
Montrala; Thanks for your input - very interesting to hear the facts from someone really there.
6/1/2012 10:10:46 AM
I have no hate for the 416, I am no fanboy of any manufacturer. The 416 is a better rifle than the current M4, but don't expect to see it replace the M4 there is too much politics behind the M4.
6/1/2012 11:18:53 PM
What a great read! Im really curious why you guy's would choose the hk over the beyrl? It seems to me the beyrl would be the better rifle but I guess there's a good reason. Also, is it true the polish special forces are trying the acr as a replacement?
6/4/2012 10:14:58 AM
Originally Posted By kja:
What a great read! Im really curious why you guy's would choose the hk over the beyrl? It seems to me the beyrl would be the better rifle but I guess there's a good reason. Also, is it true the polish special forces are trying the acr as a replacement?
What a great read! Im really curious why you guy's would choose the hk over the beyrl? It seems to me the beyrl would be the better rifle but I guess there's a good reason. Also, is it true the polish special forces are trying the acr as a replacement?
HK416, like very AR15 patterned rifle, offers better ergonomic and configuration flexibility than any AK-pattern rifle. Beryl is good rifle, quite modern (in wz. 96/06 config) and with accuracy superior to most AKs, but HK416 is superior to Beryl in every 'shootability/usability' department, with at least same level of reliability and durability. HK416, as AR15 pattern weapon, might require a little more attention in maintenance, but it is not problem for special forces or for professional army (AKs were designed for conscript army), where highly trained personnel is taken into account.
As to second question, there is some interest in ACR and small number of those rifles were procured for testing and evaluation purposes. How it will turn out, time will tell. Before GROM decided to go for HK416, there were also small number of those literally beaten to death, before unit committed with this design. GROM is constantly testing and looking for new products, in case there will be something that will fill their need better or cheaper than HK416. Polish Secret Service equivalent (Bureau of Government Protection) decided to go with SCAR, because they carry their rifles much more than they shoot them (unlike GROM), so lower weight was important factor for them. Everybody looks for tool that fits best within their job description.
There is also new Polish rifle (MSBS aka Radon) in works, that shares external similarities to aesthetic of ACR (or SCAR), but it genuine Polish design (with several patents). One of interesting features of MSBS is ability to convert regular rifle into bull-pup configuration by replacing lower receiver and adding cheek rest and sights riser to upper receiver.
6/4/2012 10:57:19 AM
Originally Posted By Montrala:
Actually... no. And no.
Initially we were thinking that we must use NATO round, but after we joined NATO we found out that.... nobody gives a damn about it. But we already had 5.56 rifle ready, so we adopted it anyway (but stopped plans to adopt STANG 4179 magazine). We also have our own 5.56 round with bullet that is equivalent of SS109, but it is not SS109. Polish Beryls use 1/9" twist to as universal for both 3.6g and 4.0g bullets.
We still use 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R in rear (garrison) units, slowly replacing old AKM and AKMS with Beryl and PKM with UKM-2000 (7.62x51). What we did, when were going to join NATO, we completely canceled transformation to 5.45x39 round (and wz. 88 Tantal), because it just started, so it was cheaper to cancel it, than to have 3 rounds in use. But 7.62x39 is still used until remaining stock or rifles and ammo will dry.
5.56 is standard for our Special Forces Command, but lately SFC units that were still using Beryls, replaced them with HK416
Usually regular soldiers that are issued AKM/AKMS, when preparing for mission, have time to train with 5.56 Beryl and use Beryl on mission.
Originally Posted By mrcuervo:
So if the NATO standard is 5.56mm and i'm assuming its SS109 type ammo does that mean whoever has joined NATO needs to convert their AK's to 5.56? And do they have to use SS109?
So if the NATO standard is 5.56mm and i'm assuming its SS109 type ammo does that mean whoever has joined NATO needs to convert their AK's to 5.56? And do they have to use SS109?
Actually... no. And no.
Initially we were thinking that we must use NATO round, but after we joined NATO we found out that.... nobody gives a damn about it. But we already had 5.56 rifle ready, so we adopted it anyway (but stopped plans to adopt STANG 4179 magazine). We also have our own 5.56 round with bullet that is equivalent of SS109, but it is not SS109. Polish Beryls use 1/9" twist to as universal for both 3.6g and 4.0g bullets.
We still use 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R in rear (garrison) units, slowly replacing old AKM and AKMS with Beryl and PKM with UKM-2000 (7.62x51). What we did, when were going to join NATO, we completely canceled transformation to 5.45x39 round (and wz. 88 Tantal), because it just started, so it was cheaper to cancel it, than to have 3 rounds in use. But 7.62x39 is still used until remaining stock or rifles and ammo will dry.
5.56 is standard for our Special Forces Command, but lately SFC units that were still using Beryls, replaced them with HK416
Usually regular soldiers that are issued AKM/AKMS, when preparing for mission, have time to train with 5.56 Beryl and use Beryl on mission.
is this a 7.62x51 PKM?
6/6/2012 6:43:57 AM
Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
is this a 7.62x51 PKM?
Originally Posted By Montrala:
Actually... no. And no.
Initially we were thinking that we must use NATO round, but after we joined NATO we found out that.... nobody gives a damn about it. But we already had 5.56 rifle ready, so we adopted it anyway (but stopped plans to adopt STANG 4179 magazine). We also have our own 5.56 round with bullet that is equivalent of SS109, but it is not SS109. Polish Beryls use 1/9" twist to as universal for both 3.6g and 4.0g bullets.
We still use 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R in rear (garrison) units, slowly replacing old AKM and AKMS with Beryl and PKM with UKM-2000 (7.62x51). What we did, when were going to join NATO, we completely canceled transformation to 5.45x39 round (and wz. 88 Tantal), because it just started, so it was cheaper to cancel it, than to have 3 rounds in use. But 7.62x39 is still used until remaining stock or rifles and ammo will dry.
5.56 is standard for our Special Forces Command, but lately SFC units that were still using Beryls, replaced them with HK416
Usually regular soldiers that are issued AKM/AKMS, when preparing for mission, have time to train with 5.56 Beryl and use Beryl on mission.
Originally Posted By mrcuervo:
So if the NATO standard is 5.56mm and i'm assuming its SS109 type ammo does that mean whoever has joined NATO needs to convert their AK's to 5.56? And do they have to use SS109?
So if the NATO standard is 5.56mm and i'm assuming its SS109 type ammo does that mean whoever has joined NATO needs to convert their AK's to 5.56? And do they have to use SS109?
Actually... no. And no.
Initially we were thinking that we must use NATO round, but after we joined NATO we found out that.... nobody gives a damn about it. But we already had 5.56 rifle ready, so we adopted it anyway (but stopped plans to adopt STANG 4179 magazine). We also have our own 5.56 round with bullet that is equivalent of SS109, but it is not SS109. Polish Beryls use 1/9" twist to as universal for both 3.6g and 4.0g bullets.
We still use 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R in rear (garrison) units, slowly replacing old AKM and AKMS with Beryl and PKM with UKM-2000 (7.62x51). What we did, when were going to join NATO, we completely canceled transformation to 5.45x39 round (and wz. 88 Tantal), because it just started, so it was cheaper to cancel it, than to have 3 rounds in use. But 7.62x39 is still used until remaining stock or rifles and ammo will dry.
5.56 is standard for our Special Forces Command, but lately SFC units that were still using Beryls, replaced them with HK416
Usually regular soldiers that are issued AKM/AKMS, when preparing for mission, have time to train with 5.56 Beryl and use Beryl on mission.
is this a 7.62x51 PKM?
No, it is not. It externaly resembles PKM, but has very different action design. It is fed from right side by M13 link. There is also version that is fed from left side, for tank mount.
More: http://www.zmt.tarnow.pl/pdf/039_7,62mm%20UKM%202000.pdf
Receiver rail abomination is result of Polish Army request, that iron sights must be usable by looking under any aiming device mounted on rail.
6/6/2012 7:10:51 AM
Originally Posted By Montrala:
No, it is not. It externaly resembles PKM, but has very different action design. It is fed from right side by M13 link. There is also version that is fed from left side, for tank mount.
More: http://www.zmt.tarnow.pl/pdf/039_7,62mm%20UKM%202000.pdf
Receiver rail abomination is result of Polish Army request, that iron sights must be usable by looking under any aiming device mounted on rail.
Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
is this a 7.62x51 PKM?
Originally Posted By Montrala:
Actually... no. And no.
Initially we were thinking that we must use NATO round, but after we joined NATO we found out that.... nobody gives a damn about it. But we already had 5.56 rifle ready, so we adopted it anyway (but stopped plans to adopt STANG 4179 magazine). We also have our own 5.56 round with bullet that is equivalent of SS109, but it is not SS109. Polish Beryls use 1/9" twist to as universal for both 3.6g and 4.0g bullets.
We still use 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R in rear (garrison) units, slowly replacing old AKM and AKMS with Beryl and PKM with UKM-2000 (7.62x51). What we did, when were going to join NATO, we completely canceled transformation to 5.45x39 round (and wz. 88 Tantal), because it just started, so it was cheaper to cancel it, than to have 3 rounds in use. But 7.62x39 is still used until remaining stock or rifles and ammo will dry.
5.56 is standard for our Special Forces Command, but lately SFC units that were still using Beryls, replaced them with HK416
Usually regular soldiers that are issued AKM/AKMS, when preparing for mission, have time to train with 5.56 Beryl and use Beryl on mission.
Originally Posted By mrcuervo:
So if the NATO standard is 5.56mm and i'm assuming its SS109 type ammo does that mean whoever has joined NATO needs to convert their AK's to 5.56? And do they have to use SS109?
So if the NATO standard is 5.56mm and i'm assuming its SS109 type ammo does that mean whoever has joined NATO needs to convert their AK's to 5.56? And do they have to use SS109?
Actually... no. And no.
Initially we were thinking that we must use NATO round, but after we joined NATO we found out that.... nobody gives a damn about it. But we already had 5.56 rifle ready, so we adopted it anyway (but stopped plans to adopt STANG 4179 magazine). We also have our own 5.56 round with bullet that is equivalent of SS109, but it is not SS109. Polish Beryls use 1/9" twist to as universal for both 3.6g and 4.0g bullets.
We still use 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R in rear (garrison) units, slowly replacing old AKM and AKMS with Beryl and PKM with UKM-2000 (7.62x51). What we did, when were going to join NATO, we completely canceled transformation to 5.45x39 round (and wz. 88 Tantal), because it just started, so it was cheaper to cancel it, than to have 3 rounds in use. But 7.62x39 is still used until remaining stock or rifles and ammo will dry.
5.56 is standard for our Special Forces Command, but lately SFC units that were still using Beryls, replaced them with HK416
Usually regular soldiers that are issued AKM/AKMS, when preparing for mission, have time to train with 5.56 Beryl and use Beryl on mission.
is this a 7.62x51 PKM?
No, it is not. It externaly resembles PKM, but has very different action design. It is fed from right side by M13 link. There is also version that is fed from left side, for tank mount.
More: http://www.zmt.tarnow.pl/pdf/039_7,62mm%20UKM%202000.pdf
Receiver rail abomination is result of Polish Army request, that iron sights must be usable by looking under any aiming device mounted on rail.
Dude, these are some awesome posts!
6/6/2012 10:48:46 AM
Originally Posted By poorman:
I have no hate for the 416, I am no fanboy of any manufacturer. The 416 is a better rifle than the current M4, but don't expect to see it replace the M4 there is too much politics behind the M4 cost to implement the 416.
I have no hate for the 416, I am no fanboy of any manufacturer. The 416 is a better rifle than the current M4, but don't expect to see it replace the M4 there is too much politics behind the M4 cost to implement the 416.
Why would they fix what isn't broken? The cost would be huge and the benefit would be minimal.
6/6/2012 2:41:08 PM
i think one of the main reasons they went HK is also logistics.
HK is right there in europe for parts and support.
it just makes sense logically.
HK is right there in europe for parts and support.
it just makes sense logically.
6/6/2012 8:02:07 PM
Originally Posted By haydendavid380:
Why would they fix what isn't broken? The cost would be huge and the benefit would be minimal.
Originally Posted By poorman:
I have no hate for the 416, I am no fanboy of any manufacturer. The 416 is a better rifle than the current M4, but don't expect to see it replace the M4 there is too much politics behind the M4 cost to implement the 416.
I have no hate for the 416, I am no fanboy of any manufacturer. The 416 is a better rifle than the current M4, but don't expect to see it replace the M4 there is too much politics behind the M4 cost to implement the 416.
Why would they fix what isn't broken? The cost would be huge and the benefit would be minimal.
this of course only applies to countries like the US that actually uses the M4. I would say that every politics behind the M4 say its a POS by politicians that have never served. yet when we do testing it shows that generally if there is an improvement its around 5% but comes at a cost of around 100% more than current M4's
I'm sure if your a country that is switching to the 5.56 the HK416 is a great rifle to pick and its probably easier getting parts and rifles from them vs the US, but im not sure about that last part
6/6/2012 8:45:14 PM
Originally Posted By leib109:
Nice post. There's a lot of hate directed at the 416, mainly by fanboys of smaller companies that, as you said, don't have the experience to make weapons for seriously heavy use.
Nice post. There's a lot of hate directed at the 416, mainly by fanboys of smaller companies that, as you said, don't have the experience to make weapons for seriously heavy use.
Sorry but a standard Polish Beryl or Arsenal 106 will take a beating far longer than a 416. And I own HK rifles.
6/6/2012 9:35:17 PM
Edited...VA-gunnut
6/6/2012 10:27:03 PM
Originally Posted By 7n6:
Sorry but a standard Polish Beryl or Arsenal 106 will take a beating far longer than a 416. And I own HK rifles.
Originally Posted By leib109:
Nice post. There's a lot of hate directed at the 416, mainly by fanboys of smaller companies that, as you said, don't have the experience to make weapons for seriously heavy use.
Nice post. There's a lot of hate directed at the 416, mainly by fanboys of smaller companies that, as you said, don't have the experience to make weapons for seriously heavy use.
Sorry but a standard Polish Beryl or Arsenal 106 will take a beating far longer than a 416. And I own HK rifles.
Which HK rifles? Do you own a 416/MR556?
6/6/2012 10:59:43 PM
6/6/2012 11:25:23 PM
Edited...VA-gunnut
6/6/2012 11:35:45 PM
Edited...VA-gunnut
sine you seem to think im here just to troll my one and only AK
i still prefer the AR-15 but I do have an AK
sine you seem to think im here just to troll my one and only AK
i still prefer the AR-15 but I do have an AK
6/6/2012 11:43:31 PM
Edited...VA-gunnut
6/6/2012 11:47:16 PM
If you guys screw up this thread, I'm not going to be happy.
6/6/2012 11:51:52 PM
Edited...VA-gunnut
6/7/2012 9:47:02 AM
Originally Posted By Montrala:
Actually... no. And no.
Initially we were thinking that we must use NATO round, but after we joined NATO we found out that.... nobody gives a damn about it. But we already had 5.56 rifle ready, so we adopted it anyway (but stopped plans to adopt STANG 4179 magazine). We also have our own 5.56 round with bullet that is equivalent of SS109, but it is not SS109. Polish Beryls use 1/9" twist to as universal for both 3.6g and 4.0g bullets.
We still use 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R in rear (garrison) units, slowly replacing old AKM and AKMS with Beryl and PKM with UKM-2000 (7.62x51). What we did, when were going to join NATO, we completely canceled transformation to 5.45x39 round (and wz. 88 Tantal), because it just started, so it was cheaper to cancel it, than to have 3 rounds in use. But 7.62x39 is still used until remaining stock or rifles and ammo will dry.
5.56 is standard for our Special Forces Command, but lately SFC units that were still using Beryls, replaced them with HK416
Usually regular soldiers that are issued AKM/AKMS, when preparing for mission, have time to train with 5.56 Beryl and use Beryl on mission.
Originally Posted By mrcuervo:
So if the NATO standard is 5.56mm and i'm assuming its SS109 type ammo does that mean whoever has joined NATO needs to convert their AK's to 5.56? And do they have to use SS109?
So if the NATO standard is 5.56mm and i'm assuming its SS109 type ammo does that mean whoever has joined NATO needs to convert their AK's to 5.56? And do they have to use SS109?
Actually... no. And no.
Initially we were thinking that we must use NATO round, but after we joined NATO we found out that.... nobody gives a damn about it. But we already had 5.56 rifle ready, so we adopted it anyway (but stopped plans to adopt STANG 4179 magazine). We also have our own 5.56 round with bullet that is equivalent of SS109, but it is not SS109. Polish Beryls use 1/9" twist to as universal for both 3.6g and 4.0g bullets.
We still use 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R in rear (garrison) units, slowly replacing old AKM and AKMS with Beryl and PKM with UKM-2000 (7.62x51). What we did, when were going to join NATO, we completely canceled transformation to 5.45x39 round (and wz. 88 Tantal), because it just started, so it was cheaper to cancel it, than to have 3 rounds in use. But 7.62x39 is still used until remaining stock or rifles and ammo will dry.
5.56 is standard for our Special Forces Command, but lately SFC units that were still using Beryls, replaced them with HK416
Usually regular soldiers that are issued AKM/AKMS, when preparing for mission, have time to train with 5.56 Beryl and use Beryl on mission.
Know you've gone and ticked me off. I've got an AR that still needs a optic, a HK MP5 A5 .22lr that needs a few more mods, a WASR 10/63 that needs to have its front sight straighened and an upgrade or two, and a Hi Point 995 carbine that I've got like 2 or 3 more mods left to do after putting it in an ATS stock, but now you have me wanting one of the Beryls that Atlantic firearms has listed on their page.
Reguarding the Beryls, what kind of magazines do they take?
Also, thanks for the information you have posted.
6/7/2012 10:51:25 PM
Originally Posted By Montrala:
HK416, like very AR15 patterned rifle, offers better ergonomic and configuration flexibility than any AK-pattern rifle. Beryl is good rifle, quite modern (in wz. 96/06 config) and with accuracy superior to most AKs, but HK416 is superior to Beryl in every 'shootability/usability' department, with at least same level of reliability and durability. HK416, as AR15 pattern weapon, might require a little more attention in maintenance, but it is not problem for special forces or for professional army (AKs were designed for conscript army), where highly trained personnel is taken into account.
As to second question, there is some interest in ACR and small number of those rifles were procured for testing and evaluation purposes. How it will turn out, time will tell. Before GROM decided to go for HK416, there were also small number of those literally beaten to death, before unit committed with this design. GROM is constantly testing and looking for new products, in case there will be something that will fill their need better or cheaper than HK416. Polish Secret Service equivalent (Bureau of Government Protection) decided to go with SCAR, because they carry their rifles much more than they shoot them (unlike GROM), so lower weight was important factor for them. Everybody looks for tool that fits best within their job description.
There is also new Polish rifle (MSBS aka Radon) in works, that shares external similarities to aesthetic of ACR (or SCAR), but it genuine Polish design (with several patents). One of interesting features of MSBS is ability to convert regular rifle into bull-pup configuration by replacing lower receiver and adding cheek rest and sights riser to upper receiver.
Originally Posted By kja:
What a great read! Im really curious why you guy's would choose the hk over the beyrl? It seems to me the beyrl would be the better rifle but I guess there's a good reason. Also, is it true the polish special forces are trying the acr as a replacement?
What a great read! Im really curious why you guy's would choose the hk over the beyrl? It seems to me the beyrl would be the better rifle but I guess there's a good reason. Also, is it true the polish special forces are trying the acr as a replacement?
HK416, like very AR15 patterned rifle, offers better ergonomic and configuration flexibility than any AK-pattern rifle. Beryl is good rifle, quite modern (in wz. 96/06 config) and with accuracy superior to most AKs, but HK416 is superior to Beryl in every 'shootability/usability' department, with at least same level of reliability and durability. HK416, as AR15 pattern weapon, might require a little more attention in maintenance, but it is not problem for special forces or for professional army (AKs were designed for conscript army), where highly trained personnel is taken into account.
As to second question, there is some interest in ACR and small number of those rifles were procured for testing and evaluation purposes. How it will turn out, time will tell. Before GROM decided to go for HK416, there were also small number of those literally beaten to death, before unit committed with this design. GROM is constantly testing and looking for new products, in case there will be something that will fill their need better or cheaper than HK416. Polish Secret Service equivalent (Bureau of Government Protection) decided to go with SCAR, because they carry their rifles much more than they shoot them (unlike GROM), so lower weight was important factor for them. Everybody looks for tool that fits best within their job description.
There is also new Polish rifle (MSBS aka Radon) in works, that shares external similarities to aesthetic of ACR (or SCAR), but it genuine Polish design (with several patents). One of interesting features of MSBS is ability to convert regular rifle into bull-pup configuration by replacing lower receiver and adding cheek rest and sights riser to upper receiver.
See I totally forget about highspeed and useing infared/ nv because im just a civilian. I really appreciate the response, that makes alot of sense and really interesting. I didnt mean to turn it into a ak vs. ar thing at all and thats really cool you know so much about all these sexy weapon systems and there role in defense. I really like the 416 alot but I have always had a thing for the heavier more tank-like assault weapons. In america our civilian version is somewhat bastardized alittle and is very expensive, and we cant even get g36's, we have to do a full conversion of the sporter rifle. Thanks, your post was really fun to read and any more insight in different platforms im sure we will all soak it up like a sponge.
6/8/2012 8:12:29 AM
Originally Posted By Jacknife:
Reguarding the Beryls, what kind of magazines do they take?
Reguarding the Beryls, what kind of magazines do they take?
They, quite surprisingly, use... Beryl magazines. Those are whole polymer (no metal insert) mags, that seem to work fine and take abuse easily. Standard mag is 30rg, but FB Radom make also 20rd, 10rd and 5rd mags (they cut 30rd body and add steel baseplate lips). I know of guys who use Saiga mags in Beryl and other way round, but in each case some mods to mag or rifle is needed. There is not stantdar 5.56 AK mags. All most 5.56 AKs were made as export weapon or (like Beryl) as issue weapon after end of Soviet era, so there were not compatibility requirements. They can be made exchangeable, because no one went too far from original AK mag design, but they differ.
BTW I did not want to make this thread in some HK416 vs rest of the world bash fest. Please take in mind that decision of selecting HK416 for Polish SOF has also reason of avoiding getting into US ITAR/bureaucracy/DoS entanglements (that can leave forces out of spare parts or replacement rifles just because of bad mood by some pen pusher in D.C.), also M4 (or SR16) outside US is actually not cheaper than similarly configured HK416 (we do not get rifles for free from US like Israel or Egypt).
I'm totally confident, that our AKMs, AKMSs and Beryls with vastly outlive any HK416 in our inventory. Just because AKs and Beryls are (now) mostly used by soldiers who carry them, whlie HKs go to ones that shoot them (pre-deployment training for SOF can go to 10-15K rounds in few weeks). But until JWK (formely 1.PSK) switched to HK, they were using mostly Beryls and Mini Beryls (Beryl Commando never was issued, while it was made to fill the gap between both version for 1.PSK use - 14.5" HK416 went into this place) trough all Iraqi and A-stan deployments rifles performed very well.
1.PSK soldier training mag changes with grenade launcher equipped Mini Beryl:
http://youtu.be/DlDHEbpABL8
There is great article on Beryl story from my friend Leszek (some of you might met him presenting Beryls on SHOT 2012) published in Small Arms Defense Journal:
http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=295
