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Paul Blart?
3/3/2012 12:38:26 AM
What do you do if security guard types want to see what's in your pockets and it's your carry piece?
3/3/2012 1:00:04 AM
tell them to fuck off because they aren't real cops?? is this a trick question?
3/3/2012 1:03:06 AM
Originally Posted By kzx87:
tell them to fuck off because they aren't real cops?? is this a trick question?
tell them to fuck off because they aren't real cops?? is this a trick question?
No, just a noob one. Thanks for confirming my plan.
3/3/2012 1:05:21 AM
Originally Posted By JustSomeDude:
No, just a noob one. Thanks for confirming my plan.
Originally Posted By kzx87:
tell them to fuck off because they aren't real cops?? is this a trick question?
tell them to fuck off because they aren't real cops?? is this a trick question?
No, just a noob one. Thanks for confirming my plan.
no problem. part of CCW is knowing the laws and what the limits are, but its also knowing what your rights are too. don't take shit from people unless you're legally obligated.
3/3/2012 10:18:22 AM
Just be advised that while they may not be officers, if you are for example in a mall, and mall security approaches you and questions you about carry etc, and you tell them to fuck off, you most likely will be removed from the mall. Just saying. While they are 'security' in many states Security on thier property has police powers.
3/3/2012 10:51:28 AM
Originally Posted By capt512:
Just be advised that while they may not be officers, if you are for example in a mall, and mall security approaches you and questions you about carry etc, and you tell them to fuck off, you most likely will be removed from the mall. Just saying. While they are 'security' in many states Security on thier property has police powers.
Just be advised that while they may not be officers, if you are for example in a mall, and mall security approaches you and questions you about carry etc, and you tell them to fuck off, you most likely will be removed from the mall. Just saying. While they are 'security' in many states Security on thier property has police powers.
Doesn't Mall Property = Private Property?
3/3/2012 12:12:43 PM
Politely excuse yourself and leave. When carrying, don't be an a$$, avoid stupid confrontations when possible. If the police do get involved, you are not likely to enjoy the process, much less the possible outcomes.
3/3/2012 12:49:19 PM
POLITELY inquire as to who would like to know, and why? You can tell them personally its none of their business, and its your right not to say, but ask for the purpose of their questioning.
There will be no good reason for them to ask unless A) They suspect its a CCW B) They suspect your stealing.
If they suspect its a CCW, they will probably make it known, and then inform you on the properties policy.
You can then secure your weapon in your vehicle and proceed, or leave all together.
Getting aggravated, loud, disrespectful, or telling an "authoritative" figure to fuck off while in public and on the conversation of "why do you have a handgun in a handgun prohibited area" probably will not go so well. . . Just my hunch.
There will be no good reason for them to ask unless A) They suspect its a CCW B) They suspect your stealing.
If they suspect its a CCW, they will probably make it known, and then inform you on the properties policy.
You can then secure your weapon in your vehicle and proceed, or leave all together.
Getting aggravated, loud, disrespectful, or telling an "authoritative" figure to fuck off while in public and on the conversation of "why do you have a handgun in a handgun prohibited area" probably will not go so well. . . Just my hunch.
3/3/2012 1:09:44 PM
I was once confronted by a security guard who thought I was shoplifting and wanted to search me. I politely informed him that I was not stealing, and offered to open my jacket and demonstrate that I was not concealing merchandise from him, and advised him that I was carrying a revolver which he would see if I opened my jacket (this was over a decade ago and the Supertuck did not yet exist and I was carrying a S&W Model 10 both on and off duty at the time.) He agreed that that would be best, I demonstrated that I was not stealing stuff, and we politely parted ways.
3/3/2012 1:51:41 PM
maybe its because im down here in arizona but no mall cops ask to see guns, and if there is any problem like that down here you will see actual cops. i dont really go for it but its nt un common for eople in our malls to open carry as well.
3/3/2012 2:19:09 PM
Originally Posted By capt512:
While they are 'security' in many states Security on thier property has police powers.
While they are 'security' in many states Security on thier property has police powers.
Varies by State.
Unarmed, or armed security guards generally have no powers of arrest. Period. Some MAY be able to detain you by company policy and/or state laws, but that depends on the situation. Think rules of engagement. They will have to call the police.
3/3/2012 2:32:01 PM
Originally Posted By kzx87:
tell them to fuck off because they aren't real cops?? is this a trick question?
tell them to fuck off because they aren't real cops?? is this a trick question?
They are probably going down this path as they suspect you of shoplifting––perhaps having set off the RFID exit alarm? Bet course would be to simply be polite about it and ask them to go someplace private. Or you can be a knucklehead about it, possibly wind up getting the cops involved, getting trespassed, etc.
3/3/2012 3:03:37 PM
Originally Posted By CTsupra:
Varies by State.
Unarmed, or armed security guards generally have no powers of arrest. Period. Some MAY be able to detain you by company policy and/or state laws, but that depends on the situation. Think rules of engagement. They will have to call the police.
Originally Posted By capt512:
While they are 'security' in many states Security on thier property has police powers.
While they are 'security' in many states Security on thier property has police powers.
Varies by State.
Unarmed, or armed security guards generally have no powers of arrest. Period. Some MAY be able to detain you by company policy and/or state laws, but that depends on the situation. Think rules of engagement. They will have to call the police.
Yeah, you should probably only speak to specific states. In LA they can arrest for felonies and for shoplifting, and can detain for everything else, and in MS everyone, LE, security, doctors, homeless people, etc., all have the exact same powers of arrest, just as two examples where security can arrest.
3/3/2012 7:18:59 PM
Well, I wasn't really planning to be an ass about it, but I also wasn't planning to bend over and let him have his way with me either. Just leave and don't make a scene.
3/3/2012 10:22:03 PM
Originally Posted By zegermanznew:
POLITELY inquire as to who would like to know, and why? You can tell them personally its none of their business, and its your right not to say, but ask for the purpose of their questioning.
There will be no good reason for them to ask unless A) They suspect its a CCW B) They suspect your stealing.
If they suspect its a CCW, they will probably make it known, and then inform you on the properties policy.
You can then secure your weapon in your vehicle and proceed, or leave all together.
Getting aggravated, loud, disrespectful, or telling an "authoritative" figure to fuck off while in public and on the conversation of "why do you have a handgun in a handgun prohibited area" probably will not go so well. . . Just my hunch.
POLITELY inquire as to who would like to know, and why? You can tell them personally its none of their business, and its your right not to say, but ask for the purpose of their questioning.
There will be no good reason for them to ask unless A) They suspect its a CCW B) They suspect your stealing.
If they suspect its a CCW, they will probably make it known, and then inform you on the properties policy.
You can then secure your weapon in your vehicle and proceed, or leave all together.
Getting aggravated, loud, disrespectful, or telling an "authoritative" figure to fuck off while in public and on the conversation of "why do you have a handgun in a handgun prohibited area" probably will not go so well. . . Just my hunch.
this is the correct answer
3/4/2012 12:44:31 AM
Originally Posted By JustSomeDude:
Well, I wasn't really planning to be an ass about it, but I also wasn't planning to bend over and let him have his way with me either. Just leave and don't make a scene.
Well, I wasn't really planning to be an ass about it, but I also wasn't planning to bend over and let him have his way with me either. Just leave and don't make a scene.
3/4/2012 10:07:54 AM
Back in the day the police /etc. had to have a damn good reason to detain / molest you !
99% of the time if you are clean cut type of guy you wont get mess with.
99% of the time if you are clean cut type of guy you wont get mess with.
3/4/2012 2:32:57 PM
None of the malls I frequent are posted against the carry of concealed firearms so it's none of anybody's business that I am carrying.
If Blart wanted me to disclose my gun to him I would tell him to fuck off.
If Blart wanted me to disclose my gun to him I would tell him to fuck off.
3/4/2012 4:50:26 PM
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Yeah, you should probably only speak to specific states. In LA they can arrest for felonies and for shoplifting, and can detain for everything else, and in MS everyone, LE, security, doctors, homeless people, etc., all have the exact same powers of arrest, just as two examples where security can arrest.
Originally Posted By CTsupra:
Varies by State.
Unarmed, or armed security guards generally have no powers of arrest. Period. Some MAY be able to detain you by company policy and/or state laws, but that depends on the situation. Think rules of engagement. They will have to call the police.
Originally Posted By capt512:
While they are 'security' in many states Security on thier property has police powers.
While they are 'security' in many states Security on thier property has police powers.
Varies by State.
Unarmed, or armed security guards generally have no powers of arrest. Period. Some MAY be able to detain you by company policy and/or state laws, but that depends on the situation. Think rules of engagement. They will have to call the police.
Yeah, you should probably only speak to specific states. In LA they can arrest for felonies and for shoplifting, and can detain for everything else, and in MS everyone, LE, security, doctors, homeless people, etc., all have the exact same powers of arrest, just as two examples where security can arrest.
In Virginia armed security have arrest powers on the property that they are employed to protect. In North Carolina no one has arrest powers but LEOs. However, North Carolina has company police, which could be mistaken for security, that have the same powers of arrest as municipal LEOs. Crabtree Valley Mall in Raleigh has unarmed company police that have full powers of arrest.
Just make sure you know who you are dealing with.
3/4/2012 7:25:45 PM
Originally Posted By America-first:
None of the malls I frequent are posted against the carry of concealed firearms so it's none of anybody's business that I am carrying.
If Blart wanted me to disclose my gun to him I would tell him to fuck off.
None of the malls I frequent are posted against the carry of concealed firearms so it's none of anybody's business that I am carrying.
If Blart wanted me to disclose my gun to him I would tell him to fuck off.
Our mall off of US41 has a sign.
but I still carry anyways
Punta Gorda
3/7/2012 1:06:01 AM
My suggestion would be to be polite and nice, as law enforcement is only a call, or radio page away in most cases. Then you can tell the LEO to fuck off too if you like although jail will probably be in your future in that case. Security Officers while not sworn officers in most cases, are just trying to do a job, so be polite to them they have a difficult job and are often put in situations the general public does not want to deal with. If suspected of shop lifting that in most cases the officer would have to observe, and you take the item, If don't reveal what you are carrying and the police are called, you will be detained until they arrive, how you choose to handle that is up to you. If you just show them what is in your pockets even if armed if you have not done anything wrong you will be on your way. In many states you are legally allowed to carry in a mall, I don't have any issue with those that decide to exercise that right, you will often find the most cases, security officers are gun people, oddly enough far more so than the average LEO, so dealing with one of them with out LEO intervention maybe a better option, unless carrying in a prohibited place. Telling a Security Officer to Fuck Off would be pretty much be the last thing I would do, also consider that by swearing in public in ear shot of children and women is going to almost guarantee you trip to jail for disorderly conduct. If carrying in a mall where prohibited you will probably just be escorted off the property and probably trespassed for a period of time if you didn't steal anything, this could be anywhere from a month to life, but this is still probably better than dealing with Law Enforcement and possibly going to court over it. Also in most cases if you are asked to show what you have in your pockets at least where I have worked you will be taken to an office outside of public view, therefore the rest of the public does not need to know whether you are carrying or not. Also most Security Officers don't just walk around all day and ask people if they are carrying honestly we have more important shit to do.
3/8/2012 1:35:42 PM
^^^This security officer doesn't care if you carry concealed.
Just understand that if you show me yours, I'll probably show you mine.
If wherever I'm working has a policy against firearms, I'd probably either ask you to put it in your vehicle, or at least conceal it better, and make sure it stays that way. I carry off-duty, too. *shrugs*
Just understand that if you show me yours, I'll probably show you mine.
If wherever I'm working has a policy against firearms, I'd probably either ask you to put it in your vehicle, or at least conceal it better, and make sure it stays that way. I carry off-duty, too. *shrugs*
3/9/2012 7:51:30 PM
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
3/10/2012 12:31:43 PM
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
3/10/2012 12:48:13 PM
I would probably invite them to call LE or offer to do so myself, and offer to wait with them until the officer arrived. But I really have no intention of letting some teenager in Target put hands on me or potentially finger f––- my loaded carry gun.
3/10/2012 10:04:05 PM
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
People never seem to understand that the Constitution protects them from unreasonable actions by the government, not regular citizens or private entities. Every burglar in the country could be charged with civil rights violations in federal court for unreasonable search and seizure.
3/11/2012 8:41:43 AM
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
MS everyone, LE, security, doctors, homeless people, etc., all have the exact same powers of arrest, just as two examples where security can arrest.
MS everyone, LE, security, doctors, homeless people, etc., all have the exact same powers of arrest, just as two examples where security can arrest.
I am ashamed to admit I did not know this.
It would appear I have some more learn'in to do about my new home state.
OP: It's been said, many times, many ways, don't be an ass. Don't escalate the situation. Don't turn a security guards curiosity into full blown police situation by being a dick.
3/11/2012 9:39:18 AM
Originally Posted By BroncoGlenn:
Originally Posted By kzx87:
tell them to fuck off because they aren't real cops?? is this a trick question?
tell them to fuck off because they aren't real cops?? is this a trick question?
They are probably going down this path as they suspect you of shoplifting––perhaps having set off the RFID exit alarm? Bet course would be to simply be polite about it and ask them to go someplace private. Or you can be a knucklehead about it, possibly wind up getting the cops involved, getting trespassed, etc.
NEVER go someplace private. If you're not breaking the law it's better to have plenty of witnesses. All kinds of shenanigans (real or imagined) seem to go on behind closed doors.
3/11/2012 3:50:52 PM
Originally Posted By FredMan:
NEVER go someplace private. If you're not breaking the law it's better to have plenty of witnesses. All kinds of shenanigans (real or imagined) seem to go on behind closed doors.
Originally Posted By BroncoGlenn:
Originally Posted By kzx87:
tell them to fuck off because they aren't real cops?? is this a trick question?
tell them to fuck off because they aren't real cops?? is this a trick question?
They are probably going down this path as they suspect you of shoplifting––perhaps having set off the RFID exit alarm? Bet course would be to simply be polite about it and ask them to go someplace private. Or you can be a knucklehead about it, possibly wind up getting the cops involved, getting trespassed, etc.
NEVER go someplace private. If you're not breaking the law it's better to have plenty of witnesses. All kinds of shenanigans (real or imagined) seem to go on behind closed doors.
It's a standard policy of the stores I've interacted with to go to the nearby security office. If you want to scream and raise a fit in objection I'm sure you'll have plenty of witnesses on hand, just not in your favor. It's a very simple formula really; act reasonable and you'll likely be treated reasonably. In my area most large retail stores can simply issue a summons regarding the allegation without even involving the police, unless there is some mitigating circumstance such as a non-cooperative person. There is no Guido and Vinny waiting in back or whatever shenanigans you believe are waiting for you.
In short your concern is unfounded and much ado about nothing.
3/11/2012 10:20:57 PM
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
How does the 4th amendment not protect me even on private property? You all seem to be secure in your 2nd amendment and carrying on private property.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
3/11/2012 11:25:11 PM
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
How does the 4th amendment not protect me even on private property? You all seem to be secure in your 2nd amendment and carrying on private property.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
How does the 4th amendment not protect me even on private property? You all seem to be secure in your 2nd amendment and carrying on private property.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Well, for one thing, on PRIVATE PROPERTY, security or any of the owner's agents may demand to search you as a condition of you REMAINING on that private property, you have a right to refuse and be compelled to leave immediately or you can submit to search and be allowed to stay.
Some night clubs search at the door, if you want in, you get searched, if you refuse, you simply are not permitted in. I can not forcibly search you for anything in regard to you being present on private property, I can only use force in making you LEAVE or to take you into custody based on a citizen's arrest, and then I can forcibly search you for weapons. I can forcibly search you if you have stolen something, and only if I actually saw you conceal it or remove it from the private property that I am assigned to work.
Examples: I am a security guard (I am not an officer, I have not sworn an oath compelled to do so by a government entity to do XYZ for XYZ), I observe a "print" on a handgun against your clothing, I am within my right and within the scope of employment to ASK you what you have, even ask you if you have a gun. You reply "Go fuck yourself". And now you MUST leave, why? Because I said so, for two reasons, 1. I think you have a gun (And the policy of the place is NO GUNS, or MY policy is NO GUNS as I am an AGENT of the owner) 2. You told me to go fuck myself, and as an AGENT of the owner, we don't allow you to come to our business or our house and tell the owner (ME as the agent) to go fuck myself. I can physically MAKE you leave, or, I can hook you up for your refusal to hit the road. What would I do? I give distance, if you have a gun and are being a tool, I'm sure not going to escalate this in to a gun battle. I will call the cops and watch them merrily beat you to a pulp if you tell them to fuck themselves and then they haul you off to "The Man-love motel". The truth of the matter is all I actually HAVE to do is OBSERVE and REPORT.
I'm an ARMED security guard at work, my weapon is NOT there to preserve property, ONLY LIFE. I am not permitted to point my weapon at you to gain compliance to the rules or policy of the private property I work at. I carry a weapon to fight back with should you want to injure or kill me or another in the preservation of life. I don't pull my weapon just because you make me mad. I don't shoot back because I am angry, I shoot back to preserve the lives of those not shooting at me or others.
Shoplifters and search & seizure: I may forcibly search your person for the STOLEN items AND weapons, but only after I have arrested you. I MUST see you conceal items of private property that you have unlawfully removed without permission (Such as buying it at a store). I may also arrest and search you after you have unlawfully removed private property from the premises of a business. I may search you forcibly for the purposes of recovering the property and search you for weapons that you may use to hurt me or someone else. I may also use restraints on you to prevent your escape and to prevent you from hurting me or others. I don't need a warrant to do this.
I may ASK you to submit to search if I THINK you have a weapon or have stolen something, you may REFUSE to permit my search of your person or inspection of your bags and such, and then you will be required to leave immediately and more than likely NEVER return, you will receive a trespass warning. I can not prevent you from leaving unsearched. Pssssttt.. My little secret is that when I have to do this, I actually want you to leave... I don't make as much as cops do, so, naturally, I am into working smarter, not harder.
Remember, unless you are an arrested person, you can refuse search by a security guard, but then you might (probably) be required to leave at once.
Different scenario:
Me: Hi! I'm security, and I believe you might be carrying a concealed firearm. It is the policy of XYZ that only the police and security carry guns here. Are you carrying a gun?
You: Why yes I am.
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Sure thing, I didn't know the gun policy here, I'll take it home and be back later.
Me: Hey, thanks mister! Please do come back!
END of encounter with you.
Average GD type scenario:
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Go fuck yourself Mall Ninja! It's none of your fucking business, and you're not a cop, so eat shit.
Me: Wow, okay, you have to leave now, actually, RIGHT NOW. Also, you're never welcome back here again, of you do, you're going to jail, just so were clear on that.
You: Fuck you Mall Ninja, Make me and my gun leave.
Me: Have a nice day mister! (Walks away, calls cops and follows you at a safe distance)
COPS: Hey you! C'mere *TWIST*
You: Awe fuck! WTF? Ouch! What am I under arrest for? Assholes! I know my rights! I'm going to blade at 45! Long live Squat dog! EXPcustom said I can do whatever I want! He's my lawyer! He's a big city thinker! Fuuuuuuuuuuuck! OMG WTF BBQ!!!
COPS: Trespass, carrying a firearm in a prohibited place, shut the fuck up.....
Me: *Walking away* Oh look! It's 6:00 pm! Sweet! Break time and the hot chick with the big tits gives me free Chinese food. SCORE!
COPS: Get in the car, watch your head getting in...
You: Waaaa, This sucks.... I miss my pillow, my cigarettes. bathing and shitting in private, I miss real food, I hate wearing orange, waaaaa this sucks.....
This is a message brought to you by FU AROCK Productions.....
No, I am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once! YMMV
3/11/2012 11:31:17 PM
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
How does the 4th amendment not protect me even on private property? You all seem to be secure in your 2nd amendment and carrying on private property.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
How does the 4th amendment not protect me even on private property? You all seem to be secure in your 2nd amendment and carrying on private property.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
So following your logic, the restrictions contained in the COC of this website are infringing on my 1st amendment rights by not letting me insult other members and post pictures of naked women? Right?
ETA: Phrasing
3/11/2012 11:35:37 PM
Originally Posted By dogfacepappy:
Well, for one thing, on PRIVATE PROPERTY, security or any of the owner's agents may demand to search you as a condition of you REMAINING on that private property, you have a right to refuse and be compelled to leave immediately or you can submit to search and be allowed to stay.
Some night clubs search at the door, if you want in, you get searched, if you refuse, you simply are not permitted in. I can not forcibly search you for anything in regard to you being present on private property, I can only use force in making you LEAVE or to take you into custody based on a citizen's arrest, and then I can forcibly search you for weapons. I can forcibly search you if you have stolen something, and only if I actually saw you conceal it or remove it from the private property that I am assigned to work.
Examples: I am a security guard (I am not an officer, I have not sworn an oath compelled to do so by a government entity to do XYZ for XYZ), I observe a "print" on a handgun against your clothing, I am within my right and within the scope of employment to ASK you what you have, even ask you if you have a gun. You reply "Go fuck yourself". And now you MUST leave, why? Because I said so, for two reasons, 1. I think you have a gun (And the policy of the place is NO GUNS, or MY policy is NO GUNS as I am an AGENT of the owner) 2. You told me to go fuck myself, and as an AGENT of the owner, we don't allow you to come to our business or our house and tell the owner (ME as the agent) to go fuck myself. I can physically MAKE you leave, or, I can hook you up for your refusal to hit the road. What would I do? I give distance, if you have a gun and are being a tool, I'm sure not going to escalate this in to a gun battle. I will call the cops and watch them merrily beat you to a pulp if you tell them to fuck themselves and then they haul you off to "The Man-love motel". The truth of the matter is all I actually HAVE to do is OBSERVE and REPORT.
I'm an ARMED security guard at work, my weapon is NOT there to preserve property, ONLY LIFE. I am not permitted to point my weapon at you to gain compliance to the rules or policy of the private property I work at. I carry a weapon to fight back with should you want to injure or kill me or another in the preservation of life. I don't pull my weapon just because you make me mad. I don't shoot back because I am angry, I shoot back to preserve the lives of those not shooting at me or others.
Shoplifters and search & seizure: I may forcibly search your person for the STOLEN items AND weapons, but only after I have arrested you. I MUST see you conceal items of private property that you have unlawfully removed without permission (Such as buying it at a store). I may also arrest and search you after you have unlawfully removed private property from the premises of a business. I may search you forcibly for the purposes of recovering the property and search you for weapons that you may use to hurt me or someone else. I may also use restraints on you to prevent your escape and to prevent you from hurting me or others. I don't need a warrant to do this.
I may ASK you to submit to search if I THINK you have a weapon or have stolen something, you may REFUSE to permit my search of your person or inspection of your bags and such, and then you will be required to leave immediately and more than likely NEVER return, you will receive a trespass warning. I can not prevent you from leaving unsearched. Pssssttt.. My little secret is that when I have to do this, I actually want you to leave... I don't make as much as cops do, so, naturally, I am into working smarter, not harder.
Remember, unless you are an arrested person, you can refuse search by a security guard, but then you might (probably) be required to leave at once.
Different scenario:
Me: Hi! I'm security, and I believe you might be carrying a concealed firearm. It is the policy of XYZ that only the police and security carry guns here. Are you carrying a gun?
You: Why yes I am.
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Sure thing, I didn't know the gun policy here, I'll take it home and be back later.
Me: Hey, thanks mister! Please do come back!
END of encounter with you.
Average GD type scenario:
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Go fuck yourself Mall Ninja! It's none of your fucking business, and you're not a cop, so eat shit.
Me: Wow, okay, you have to leave now, actually, RIGHT NOW. Also, you're never welcome back here again, of you do, you're going to jail, just so were clear on that.
You: Fuck you Mall Ninja, Make me and my gun leave.
Me: Have a nice day mister! (Walks away, calls cops and follows you at a safe distance)
COPS: Hey you! C'mere *TWIST*
You: Awe fuck! WTF? Ouch! What am I under arrest for? Assholes! I know my rights! I'm going to blade at 45! Long live Squat dog! EXPcustom said I can do whatever I want! He's my lawyer! He's a big city thinker! Fuuuuuuuuuuuck! OMG WTF BBQ!!!
COPS: Trespass, carrying a firearm in a prohibited place, shut the fuck up.....
Me: *Walking away* Oh look! It's 6:00 pm! Sweet! Break time and the hot chick with the big tits gives me free Chinese food. SCORE!
COPS: Get in the car, watch your head getting in...
You: Waaaa, This sucks.... I miss my pillow, my cigarettes. bathing and shitting in private, I miss real food, I hate wearing orange, waaaaa this sucks.....
This is a message brought to you by FU AROCK Productions.....
No, I am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once! YMMV
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
How does the 4th amendment not protect me even on private property? You all seem to be secure in your 2nd amendment and carrying on private property.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
How does the 4th amendment not protect me even on private property? You all seem to be secure in your 2nd amendment and carrying on private property.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Well, for one thing, on PRIVATE PROPERTY, security or any of the owner's agents may demand to search you as a condition of you REMAINING on that private property, you have a right to refuse and be compelled to leave immediately or you can submit to search and be allowed to stay.
Some night clubs search at the door, if you want in, you get searched, if you refuse, you simply are not permitted in. I can not forcibly search you for anything in regard to you being present on private property, I can only use force in making you LEAVE or to take you into custody based on a citizen's arrest, and then I can forcibly search you for weapons. I can forcibly search you if you have stolen something, and only if I actually saw you conceal it or remove it from the private property that I am assigned to work.
Examples: I am a security guard (I am not an officer, I have not sworn an oath compelled to do so by a government entity to do XYZ for XYZ), I observe a "print" on a handgun against your clothing, I am within my right and within the scope of employment to ASK you what you have, even ask you if you have a gun. You reply "Go fuck yourself". And now you MUST leave, why? Because I said so, for two reasons, 1. I think you have a gun (And the policy of the place is NO GUNS, or MY policy is NO GUNS as I am an AGENT of the owner) 2. You told me to go fuck myself, and as an AGENT of the owner, we don't allow you to come to our business or our house and tell the owner (ME as the agent) to go fuck myself. I can physically MAKE you leave, or, I can hook you up for your refusal to hit the road. What would I do? I give distance, if you have a gun and are being a tool, I'm sure not going to escalate this in to a gun battle. I will call the cops and watch them merrily beat you to a pulp if you tell them to fuck themselves and then they haul you off to "The Man-love motel". The truth of the matter is all I actually HAVE to do is OBSERVE and REPORT.
I'm an ARMED security guard at work, my weapon is NOT there to preserve property, ONLY LIFE. I am not permitted to point my weapon at you to gain compliance to the rules or policy of the private property I work at. I carry a weapon to fight back with should you want to injure or kill me or another in the preservation of life. I don't pull my weapon just because you make me mad. I don't shoot back because I am angry, I shoot back to preserve the lives of those not shooting at me or others.
Shoplifters and search & seizure: I may forcibly search your person for the STOLEN items AND weapons, but only after I have arrested you. I MUST see you conceal items of private property that you have unlawfully removed without permission (Such as buying it at a store). I may also arrest and search you after you have unlawfully removed private property from the premises of a business. I may search you forcibly for the purposes of recovering the property and search you for weapons that you may use to hurt me or someone else. I may also use restraints on you to prevent your escape and to prevent you from hurting me or others. I don't need a warrant to do this.
I may ASK you to submit to search if I THINK you have a weapon or have stolen something, you may REFUSE to permit my search of your person or inspection of your bags and such, and then you will be required to leave immediately and more than likely NEVER return, you will receive a trespass warning. I can not prevent you from leaving unsearched. Pssssttt.. My little secret is that when I have to do this, I actually want you to leave... I don't make as much as cops do, so, naturally, I am into working smarter, not harder.
Remember, unless you are an arrested person, you can refuse search by a security guard, but then you might (probably) be required to leave at once.
Different scenario:
Me: Hi! I'm security, and I believe you might be carrying a concealed firearm. It is the policy of XYZ that only the police and security carry guns here. Are you carrying a gun?
You: Why yes I am.
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Sure thing, I didn't know the gun policy here, I'll take it home and be back later.
Me: Hey, thanks mister! Please do come back!
END of encounter with you.
Average GD type scenario:
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Go fuck yourself Mall Ninja! It's none of your fucking business, and you're not a cop, so eat shit.
Me: Wow, okay, you have to leave now, actually, RIGHT NOW. Also, you're never welcome back here again, of you do, you're going to jail, just so were clear on that.
You: Fuck you Mall Ninja, Make me and my gun leave.
Me: Have a nice day mister! (Walks away, calls cops and follows you at a safe distance)
COPS: Hey you! C'mere *TWIST*
You: Awe fuck! WTF? Ouch! What am I under arrest for? Assholes! I know my rights! I'm going to blade at 45! Long live Squat dog! EXPcustom said I can do whatever I want! He's my lawyer! He's a big city thinker! Fuuuuuuuuuuuck! OMG WTF BBQ!!!
COPS: Trespass, carrying a firearm in a prohibited place, shut the fuck up.....
Me: *Walking away* Oh look! It's 6:00 pm! Sweet! Break time and the hot chick with the big tits gives me free Chinese food. SCORE!
COPS: Get in the car, watch your head getting in...
You: Waaaa, This sucks.... I miss my pillow, my cigarettes. bathing and shitting in private, I miss real food, I hate wearing orange, waaaaa this sucks.....
This is a message brought to you by FU AROCK Productions.....
No, I am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once! YMMV
3/11/2012 11:53:42 PM
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
How does the 4th amendment not protect me even on private property? You all seem to be secure in your 2nd amendment and carrying on private property.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
How does the 4th amendment not protect me even on private property? You all seem to be secure in your 2nd amendment and carrying on private property.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
The bill of rights is a list of things the government cannot do. A person who is not acting as an agent of government cannot violate your civil rights. The bill of rights, as a limit on powers, does not apply to K-Mart, Dr. Phil, Charles Bronson, a shopping mall, you, etc. You have no constitutional protections from those entities. You have many statutory protections from certain actions of those entities, varying by state and locality, but they are not bound by the bill of rights unless they are acting as an agent of the state.
(There are certain exceptions to this related to the civil rights act when a private party discriminates against a person for reasons of race, but that has nothing to do with carrying a gun at the mall.)
3/12/2012 12:06:46 AM
Originally Posted By dogfacepappy:
Well, for one thing, on PRIVATE PROPERTY, security or any of the owner's agents may demand to search you as a condition of you REMAINING on that private property, you have a right to refuse and be compelled to leave immediately or you can submit to search and be allowed to stay.
Some night clubs search at the door, if you want in, you get searched, if you refuse, you simply are not permitted in. I can not forcibly search you for anything in regard to you being present on private property, I can only use force in making you LEAVE or to take you into custody based on a citizen's arrest, and then I can forcibly search you for weapons. I can forcibly search you if you have stolen something, and only if I actually saw you conceal it or remove it from the private property that I am assigned to work.
Examples: I am a security guard (I am not an officer, I have not sworn an oath compelled to do so by a government entity to do XYZ for XYZ), I observe a "print" on a handgun against your clothing, I am within my right and within the scope of employment to ASK you what you have, even ask you if you have a gun. You reply "Go fuck yourself". And now you MUST leave, why? Because I said so, for two reasons, 1. I think you have a gun (And the policy of the place is NO GUNS, or MY policy is NO GUNS as I am an AGENT of the owner) 2. You told me to go fuck myself, and as an AGENT of the owner, we don't allow you to come to our business or our house and tell the owner (ME as the agent) to go fuck myself. I can physically MAKE you leave, or, I can hook you up for your refusal to hit the road. What would I do? I give distance, if you have a gun and are being a tool, I'm sure not going to escalate this in to a gun battle. I will call the cops and watch them merrily beat you to a pulp if you tell them to fuck themselves and then they haul you off to "The Man-love motel". The truth of the matter is all I actually HAVE to do is OBSERVE and REPORT.
I'm an ARMED security guard at work, my weapon is NOT there to preserve property, ONLY LIFE. I am not permitted to point my weapon at you to gain compliance to the rules or policy of the private property I work at. I carry a weapon to fight back with should you want to injure or kill me or another in the preservation of life. I don't pull my weapon just because you make me mad. I don't shoot back because I am angry, I shoot back to preserve the lives of those not shooting at me or others.
Shoplifters and search & seizure: I may forcibly search your person for the STOLEN items AND weapons, but only after I have arrested you. I MUST see you conceal items of private property that you have unlawfully removed without permission (Such as buying it at a store). I may also arrest and search you after you have unlawfully removed private property from the premises of a business. I may search you forcibly for the purposes of recovering the property and search you for weapons that you may use to hurt me or someone else. I may also use restraints on you to prevent your escape and to prevent you from hurting me or others. I don't need a warrant to do this.
I may ASK you to submit to search if I THINK you have a weapon or have stolen something, you may REFUSE to permit my search of your person or inspection of your bags and such, and then you will be required to leave immediately and more than likely NEVER return, you will receive a trespass warning. I can not prevent you from leaving unsearched. Pssssttt.. My little secret is that when I have to do this, I actually want you to leave... I don't make as much as cops do, so, naturally, I am into working smarter, not harder.
Remember, unless you are an arrested person, you can refuse search by a security guard, but then you might (probably) be required to leave at once.
Different scenario:
Me: Hi! I'm security, and I believe you might be carrying a concealed firearm. It is the policy of XYZ that only the police and security carry guns here. Are you carrying a gun?
You: Why yes I am.
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Sure thing, I didn't know the gun policy here, I'll take it home and be back later.
Me: Hey, thanks mister! Please do come back!
END of encounter with you.
Average GD type scenario:
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Go fuck yourself Mall Ninja! It's none of your fucking business, and you're not a cop, so eat shit.
Me: Wow, okay, you have to leave now, actually, RIGHT NOW. Also, you're never welcome back here again, of you do, you're going to jail, just so were clear on that.
You: Fuck you Mall Ninja, Make me and my gun leave.
Me: Have a nice day mister! (Walks away, calls cops and follows you at a safe distance)
COPS: Hey you! C'mere *TWIST*
You: Awe fuck! WTF? Ouch! What am I under arrest for? Assholes! I know my rights! I'm going to blade at 45! Long live Squat dog! EXPcustom said I can do whatever I want! He's my lawyer! He's a big city thinker! Fuuuuuuuuuuuck! OMG WTF BBQ!!!
COPS: Trespass, carrying a firearm in a prohibited place, shut the fuck up.....
Me: *Walking away* Oh look! It's 6:00 pm! Sweet! Break time and the hot chick with the big tits gives me free Chinese food. SCORE!
COPS: Get in the car, watch your head getting in...
You: Waaaa, This sucks.... I miss my pillow, my cigarettes. bathing and shitting in private, I miss real food, I hate wearing orange, waaaaa this sucks.....
This is a message brought to you by FU AROCK Productions.....
No, I am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once! YMMV
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
How does the 4th amendment not protect me even on private property? You all seem to be secure in your 2nd amendment and carrying on private property.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
How does the 4th amendment not protect me even on private property? You all seem to be secure in your 2nd amendment and carrying on private property.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Well, for one thing, on PRIVATE PROPERTY, security or any of the owner's agents may demand to search you as a condition of you REMAINING on that private property, you have a right to refuse and be compelled to leave immediately or you can submit to search and be allowed to stay.
Some night clubs search at the door, if you want in, you get searched, if you refuse, you simply are not permitted in. I can not forcibly search you for anything in regard to you being present on private property, I can only use force in making you LEAVE or to take you into custody based on a citizen's arrest, and then I can forcibly search you for weapons. I can forcibly search you if you have stolen something, and only if I actually saw you conceal it or remove it from the private property that I am assigned to work.
Examples: I am a security guard (I am not an officer, I have not sworn an oath compelled to do so by a government entity to do XYZ for XYZ), I observe a "print" on a handgun against your clothing, I am within my right and within the scope of employment to ASK you what you have, even ask you if you have a gun. You reply "Go fuck yourself". And now you MUST leave, why? Because I said so, for two reasons, 1. I think you have a gun (And the policy of the place is NO GUNS, or MY policy is NO GUNS as I am an AGENT of the owner) 2. You told me to go fuck myself, and as an AGENT of the owner, we don't allow you to come to our business or our house and tell the owner (ME as the agent) to go fuck myself. I can physically MAKE you leave, or, I can hook you up for your refusal to hit the road. What would I do? I give distance, if you have a gun and are being a tool, I'm sure not going to escalate this in to a gun battle. I will call the cops and watch them merrily beat you to a pulp if you tell them to fuck themselves and then they haul you off to "The Man-love motel". The truth of the matter is all I actually HAVE to do is OBSERVE and REPORT.
I'm an ARMED security guard at work, my weapon is NOT there to preserve property, ONLY LIFE. I am not permitted to point my weapon at you to gain compliance to the rules or policy of the private property I work at. I carry a weapon to fight back with should you want to injure or kill me or another in the preservation of life. I don't pull my weapon just because you make me mad. I don't shoot back because I am angry, I shoot back to preserve the lives of those not shooting at me or others.
Shoplifters and search & seizure: I may forcibly search your person for the STOLEN items AND weapons, but only after I have arrested you. I MUST see you conceal items of private property that you have unlawfully removed without permission (Such as buying it at a store). I may also arrest and search you after you have unlawfully removed private property from the premises of a business. I may search you forcibly for the purposes of recovering the property and search you for weapons that you may use to hurt me or someone else. I may also use restraints on you to prevent your escape and to prevent you from hurting me or others. I don't need a warrant to do this.
I may ASK you to submit to search if I THINK you have a weapon or have stolen something, you may REFUSE to permit my search of your person or inspection of your bags and such, and then you will be required to leave immediately and more than likely NEVER return, you will receive a trespass warning. I can not prevent you from leaving unsearched. Pssssttt.. My little secret is that when I have to do this, I actually want you to leave... I don't make as much as cops do, so, naturally, I am into working smarter, not harder.
Remember, unless you are an arrested person, you can refuse search by a security guard, but then you might (probably) be required to leave at once.
Different scenario:
Me: Hi! I'm security, and I believe you might be carrying a concealed firearm. It is the policy of XYZ that only the police and security carry guns here. Are you carrying a gun?
You: Why yes I am.
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Sure thing, I didn't know the gun policy here, I'll take it home and be back later.
Me: Hey, thanks mister! Please do come back!
END of encounter with you.
Average GD type scenario:
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Go fuck yourself Mall Ninja! It's none of your fucking business, and you're not a cop, so eat shit.
Me: Wow, okay, you have to leave now, actually, RIGHT NOW. Also, you're never welcome back here again, of you do, you're going to jail, just so were clear on that.
You: Fuck you Mall Ninja, Make me and my gun leave.
Me: Have a nice day mister! (Walks away, calls cops and follows you at a safe distance)
COPS: Hey you! C'mere *TWIST*
You: Awe fuck! WTF? Ouch! What am I under arrest for? Assholes! I know my rights! I'm going to blade at 45! Long live Squat dog! EXPcustom said I can do whatever I want! He's my lawyer! He's a big city thinker! Fuuuuuuuuuuuck! OMG WTF BBQ!!!
COPS: Trespass, carrying a firearm in a prohibited place, shut the fuck up.....
Me: *Walking away* Oh look! It's 6:00 pm! Sweet! Break time and the hot chick with the big tits gives me free Chinese food. SCORE!
COPS: Get in the car, watch your head getting in...
You: Waaaa, This sucks.... I miss my pillow, my cigarettes. bathing and shitting in private, I miss real food, I hate wearing orange, waaaaa this sucks.....
This is a message brought to you by FU AROCK Productions.....
No, I am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once! YMMV
I work armed security in a high traffic environment ( not a mall or retail ) that does not allow weapons to be carried. If I deem it necessary to see under your coat or to see what is in the bag your carrying, you will either show me or leave. I have found large knives, throwing stars, cut down ball bats, etc. I work on private party so I can do this. Lots of people don't get it and try to refuse, they get it explained to them in the back of a police car.
3/12/2012 12:54:09 AM
Originally Posted By privateer1967:
I work armed security in a high traffic environment ( not a mall or retail ) that does not allow weapons to be carried. If I deem it necessary to see under your coat or to see what is in the bag your carrying, you will either show me or leave. I have found large knives, throwing stars, cut down ball bats, etc. I work on private party so I can do this. Lots of people don't get it and try to refuse, they get it explained to them in the back of a police car.
Originally Posted By dogfacepappy:
Well, for one thing, on PRIVATE PROPERTY, security or any of the owner's agents may demand to search you as a condition of you REMAINING on that private property, you have a right to refuse and be compelled to leave immediately or you can submit to search and be allowed to stay.
Some night clubs search at the door, if you want in, you get searched, if you refuse, you simply are not permitted in. I can not forcibly search you for anything in regard to you being present on private property, I can only use force in making you LEAVE or to take you into custody based on a citizen's arrest, and then I can forcibly search you for weapons. I can forcibly search you if you have stolen something, and only if I actually saw you conceal it or remove it from the private property that I am assigned to work.
Examples: I am a security guard (I am not an officer, I have not sworn an oath compelled to do so by a government entity to do XYZ for XYZ), I observe a "print" on a handgun against your clothing, I am within my right and within the scope of employment to ASK you what you have, even ask you if you have a gun. You reply "Go fuck yourself". And now you MUST leave, why? Because I said so, for two reasons, 1. I think you have a gun (And the policy of the place is NO GUNS, or MY policy is NO GUNS as I am an AGENT of the owner) 2. You told me to go fuck myself, and as an AGENT of the owner, we don't allow you to come to our business or our house and tell the owner (ME as the agent) to go fuck myself. I can physically MAKE you leave, or, I can hook you up for your refusal to hit the road. What would I do? I give distance, if you have a gun and are being a tool, I'm sure not going to escalate this in to a gun battle. I will call the cops and watch them merrily beat you to a pulp if you tell them to fuck themselves and then they haul you off to "The Man-love motel". The truth of the matter is all I actually HAVE to do is OBSERVE and REPORT.
I'm an ARMED security guard at work, my weapon is NOT there to preserve property, ONLY LIFE. I am not permitted to point my weapon at you to gain compliance to the rules or policy of the private property I work at. I carry a weapon to fight back with should you want to injure or kill me or another in the preservation of life. I don't pull my weapon just because you make me mad. I don't shoot back because I am angry, I shoot back to preserve the lives of those not shooting at me or others.
Shoplifters and search & seizure: I may forcibly search your person for the STOLEN items AND weapons, but only after I have arrested you. I MUST see you conceal items of private property that you have unlawfully removed without permission (Such as buying it at a store). I may also arrest and search you after you have unlawfully removed private property from the premises of a business. I may search you forcibly for the purposes of recovering the property and search you for weapons that you may use to hurt me or someone else. I may also use restraints on you to prevent your escape and to prevent you from hurting me or others. I don't need a warrant to do this.
I may ASK you to submit to search if I THINK you have a weapon or have stolen something, you may REFUSE to permit my search of your person or inspection of your bags and such, and then you will be required to leave immediately and more than likely NEVER return, you will receive a trespass warning. I can not prevent you from leaving unsearched. Pssssttt.. My little secret is that when I have to do this, I actually want you to leave... I don't make as much as cops do, so, naturally, I am into working smarter, not harder.
Remember, unless you are an arrested person, you can refuse search by a security guard, but then you might (probably) be required to leave at once.
Different scenario:
Me: Hi! I'm security, and I believe you might be carrying a concealed firearm. It is the policy of XYZ that only the police and security carry guns here. Are you carrying a gun?
You: Why yes I am.
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Sure thing, I didn't know the gun policy here, I'll take it home and be back later.
Me: Hey, thanks mister! Please do come back!
END of encounter with you.
Average GD type scenario:
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Go fuck yourself Mall Ninja! It's none of your fucking business, and you're not a cop, so eat shit.
Me: Wow, okay, you have to leave now, actually, RIGHT NOW. Also, you're never welcome back here again, of you do, you're going to jail, just so were clear on that.
You: Fuck you Mall Ninja, Make me and my gun leave.
Me: Have a nice day mister! (Walks away, calls cops and follows you at a safe distance)
COPS: Hey you! C'mere *TWIST*
You: Awe fuck! WTF? Ouch! What am I under arrest for? Assholes! I know my rights! I'm going to blade at 45! Long live Squat dog! EXPcustom said I can do whatever I want! He's my lawyer! He's a big city thinker! Fuuuuuuuuuuuck! OMG WTF BBQ!!!
COPS: Trespass, carrying a firearm in a prohibited place, shut the fuck up.....
Me: *Walking away* Oh look! It's 6:00 pm! Sweet! Break time and the hot chick with the big tits gives me free Chinese food. SCORE!
COPS: Get in the car, watch your head getting in...
You: Waaaa, This sucks.... I miss my pillow, my cigarettes. bathing and shitting in private, I miss real food, I hate wearing orange, waaaaa this sucks.....
This is a message brought to you by FU AROCK Productions.....
No, I am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once! YMMV
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
How does the 4th amendment not protect me even on private property? You all seem to be secure in your 2nd amendment and carrying on private property.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
Originally Posted By Navyguns45:
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
My 4th amendment right still exists on private property. They can tell me to leave but a mall security guard has no right to search me.
You have no 4th Amendment rights with regard to a private person or corporation.
How does the 4th amendment not protect me even on private property? You all seem to be secure in your 2nd amendment and carrying on private property.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Well, for one thing, on PRIVATE PROPERTY, security or any of the owner's agents may demand to search you as a condition of you REMAINING on that private property, you have a right to refuse and be compelled to leave immediately or you can submit to search and be allowed to stay.
Some night clubs search at the door, if you want in, you get searched, if you refuse, you simply are not permitted in. I can not forcibly search you for anything in regard to you being present on private property, I can only use force in making you LEAVE or to take you into custody based on a citizen's arrest, and then I can forcibly search you for weapons. I can forcibly search you if you have stolen something, and only if I actually saw you conceal it or remove it from the private property that I am assigned to work.
Examples: I am a security guard (I am not an officer, I have not sworn an oath compelled to do so by a government entity to do XYZ for XYZ), I observe a "print" on a handgun against your clothing, I am within my right and within the scope of employment to ASK you what you have, even ask you if you have a gun. You reply "Go fuck yourself". And now you MUST leave, why? Because I said so, for two reasons, 1. I think you have a gun (And the policy of the place is NO GUNS, or MY policy is NO GUNS as I am an AGENT of the owner) 2. You told me to go fuck myself, and as an AGENT of the owner, we don't allow you to come to our business or our house and tell the owner (ME as the agent) to go fuck myself. I can physically MAKE you leave, or, I can hook you up for your refusal to hit the road. What would I do? I give distance, if you have a gun and are being a tool, I'm sure not going to escalate this in to a gun battle. I will call the cops and watch them merrily beat you to a pulp if you tell them to fuck themselves and then they haul you off to "The Man-love motel". The truth of the matter is all I actually HAVE to do is OBSERVE and REPORT.
I'm an ARMED security guard at work, my weapon is NOT there to preserve property, ONLY LIFE. I am not permitted to point my weapon at you to gain compliance to the rules or policy of the private property I work at. I carry a weapon to fight back with should you want to injure or kill me or another in the preservation of life. I don't pull my weapon just because you make me mad. I don't shoot back because I am angry, I shoot back to preserve the lives of those not shooting at me or others.
Shoplifters and search & seizure: I may forcibly search your person for the STOLEN items AND weapons, but only after I have arrested you. I MUST see you conceal items of private property that you have unlawfully removed without permission (Such as buying it at a store). I may also arrest and search you after you have unlawfully removed private property from the premises of a business. I may search you forcibly for the purposes of recovering the property and search you for weapons that you may use to hurt me or someone else. I may also use restraints on you to prevent your escape and to prevent you from hurting me or others. I don't need a warrant to do this.
I may ASK you to submit to search if I THINK you have a weapon or have stolen something, you may REFUSE to permit my search of your person or inspection of your bags and such, and then you will be required to leave immediately and more than likely NEVER return, you will receive a trespass warning. I can not prevent you from leaving unsearched. Pssssttt.. My little secret is that when I have to do this, I actually want you to leave... I don't make as much as cops do, so, naturally, I am into working smarter, not harder.
Remember, unless you are an arrested person, you can refuse search by a security guard, but then you might (probably) be required to leave at once.
Different scenario:
Me: Hi! I'm security, and I believe you might be carrying a concealed firearm. It is the policy of XYZ that only the police and security carry guns here. Are you carrying a gun?
You: Why yes I am.
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Sure thing, I didn't know the gun policy here, I'll take it home and be back later.
Me: Hey, thanks mister! Please do come back!
END of encounter with you.
Average GD type scenario:
Me: Ok, I'm sorry, but you can't have your gun in here with you, it's our policy. Please remove it and take it to "whereever but here". Of course, without it, you are absolutely welcome back.
You: Go fuck yourself Mall Ninja! It's none of your fucking business, and you're not a cop, so eat shit.
Me: Wow, okay, you have to leave now, actually, RIGHT NOW. Also, you're never welcome back here again, of you do, you're going to jail, just so were clear on that.
You: Fuck you Mall Ninja, Make me and my gun leave.
Me: Have a nice day mister! (Walks away, calls cops and follows you at a safe distance)
COPS: Hey you! C'mere *TWIST*
You: Awe fuck! WTF? Ouch! What am I under arrest for? Assholes! I know my rights! I'm going to blade at 45! Long live Squat dog! EXPcustom said I can do whatever I want! He's my lawyer! He's a big city thinker! Fuuuuuuuuuuuck! OMG WTF BBQ!!!
COPS: Trespass, carrying a firearm in a prohibited place, shut the fuck up.....
Me: *Walking away* Oh look! It's 6:00 pm! Sweet! Break time and the hot chick with the big tits gives me free Chinese food. SCORE!
COPS: Get in the car, watch your head getting in...
You: Waaaa, This sucks.... I miss my pillow, my cigarettes. bathing and shitting in private, I miss real food, I hate wearing orange, waaaaa this sucks.....
This is a message brought to you by FU AROCK Productions.....
No, I am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once! YMMV
I work armed security in a high traffic environment ( not a mall or retail ) that does not allow weapons to be carried. If I deem it necessary to see under your coat or to see what is in the bag your carrying, you will either show me or leave. I have found large knives, throwing stars, cut down ball bats, etc. I work on private party so I can do this. Lots of people don't get it and try to refuse, they get it explained to them in the back of a police car.
When it gets to "FO time", I just let the cops eat 'em, my frapuccino gets to melting too fast. I especially find entertainment when the cops whip out the taser and Joe Toughguy does the "funky chicken" while I sip on my Starbucks. (Free Starbucks drinks ROCK) I'm a "Moonlighter" that works armed security for the city of Los Angeles on event type details where several city blocks are my "Mall" as it were, the biggest of which is a mondo sized gay event called Fiesta Broadway, huge carnivals, concerts, parades and such. It's a show, that"s for sure.
3/12/2012 5:43:59 PM
Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:
My suggestion would be to be polite and nice, as law enforcement is only a call, or radio page away in most cases. Then you can tell the LEO to fuck off too if you like although jail will probably be in your future in that case. Security Officers while not sworn officers in most cases, are just trying to do a job, so be polite to them they have a difficult job and are often put in situations the general public does not want to deal with. If suspected of shop lifting that in most cases the officer would have to observe, and you take the item, If don't reveal what you are carrying and the police are called, you will be detained until they arrive, how you choose to handle that is up to you. If you just show them what is in your pockets even if armed if you have not done anything wrong you will be on your way. In many states you are legally allowed to carry in a mall, I don't have any issue with those that decide to exercise that right, you will often find the most cases, security officers are gun people, oddly enough far more so than the average LEO, so dealing with one of them with out LEO intervention maybe a better option, unless carrying in a prohibited place. Telling a Security Officer to Fuck Off would be pretty much be the last thing I would do, also consider that by swearing in public in ear shot of children and women is going to almost guarantee you trip to jail for disorderly conduct. If carrying in a mall where prohibited you will probably just be escorted off the property and probably trespassed for a period of time if you didn't steal anything, this could be anywhere from a month to life, but this is still probably better than dealing with Law Enforcement and possibly going to court over it. Also in most cases if you are asked to show what you have in your pockets at least where I have worked you will be taken to an office outside of public view, therefore the rest of the public does not need to know whether you are carrying or not. Also most Security Officers don't just walk around all day and ask people if they are carrying honestly we have more important shit to do.
My suggestion would be to be polite and nice, as law enforcement is only a call, or radio page away in most cases. Then you can tell the LEO to fuck off too if you like although jail will probably be in your future in that case. Security Officers while not sworn officers in most cases, are just trying to do a job, so be polite to them they have a difficult job and are often put in situations the general public does not want to deal with. If suspected of shop lifting that in most cases the officer would have to observe, and you take the item, If don't reveal what you are carrying and the police are called, you will be detained until they arrive, how you choose to handle that is up to you. If you just show them what is in your pockets even if armed if you have not done anything wrong you will be on your way. In many states you are legally allowed to carry in a mall, I don't have any issue with those that decide to exercise that right, you will often find the most cases, security officers are gun people, oddly enough far more so than the average LEO, so dealing with one of them with out LEO intervention maybe a better option, unless carrying in a prohibited place. Telling a Security Officer to Fuck Off would be pretty much be the last thing I would do, also consider that by swearing in public in ear shot of children and women is going to almost guarantee you trip to jail for disorderly conduct. If carrying in a mall where prohibited you will probably just be escorted off the property and probably trespassed for a period of time if you didn't steal anything, this could be anywhere from a month to life, but this is still probably better than dealing with Law Enforcement and possibly going to court over it. Also in most cases if you are asked to show what you have in your pockets at least where I have worked you will be taken to an office outside of public view, therefore the rest of the public does not need to know whether you are carrying or not. Also most Security Officers don't just walk around all day and ask people if they are carrying honestly we have more important shit to do.
Wow how scared are you to exercise a right?
You say some places "legally allow" you to carry in a mall? WTF does that mean? We have a second amendment, ccw's, training, and all the bullshit but you're worried about carrying in a mall? You act like the mall is some magical places that no one (except the police, of course) should carry.
You say that you should just show them your gun. And if you don't the cops will arrest you? Well goddamnit but I don't wanna show my piece and my ID when I'm just walking through the mall doing nothing. Perhaps the 4th Amendment applies here.
You say that you can't curse in front of women and children? Well that's a crock of shit too because we have a 1st Amendment. When I go out I hear offensive words all the time but I don't go crying to Johnny Law trying to get a peace disturbance or DC charge, half or more of which are bs anyways.
3/13/2012 2:12:37 AM
The Constitutional Scholars in this thread are amazing...
It almost sounds like it should be moved to GD 
It almost sounds like it should be moved to GD
3/14/2012 7:55:38 AM
Originally Posted By 1387Delta:
The Constitutional Scholars in this thread are amazing... It almost sounds like it should be moved to GD
The Constitutional Scholars in this thread are amazing...
It almost sounds like it should be moved to GD I KNOW MAH RITEZ!
What's sad is that many of them likely scream about how nobody knows the Constitution anymore.
3/14/2012 8:30:55 AM
This is my response......
3/17/2012 4:05:43 AM
As a security guard(chemical refinery, i don't care for malls) i'd say that it's best to be polite and either comply or simply say no thank you and leave immediatly. If someone tries to bring a gun into where i work we ask them to leave and if they don't every deputy and trooper in the area is going to show up and give you some pretty silver bracelets. Everyone talking about your second amendment right to carry need to realize that you are on private property. As someone else stated, we don't go around asking everyone to lift up their clothes to check for guns. I'm usually busy doing paperwork, searching for illegals that jumped the fences, or dealing with people that can't figure out there own job, but want to tell us how to do ours.
3/17/2012 7:48:13 AM
Some of the responses in this thread had me cracking up.
Paul Blart, indeed.
Paul Blart, indeed.
3/17/2012 8:27:41 AM
Originally Posted By cash50:
Wow how scared are you to exercise a right?
Not scared at all
You say some places "legally allow" you to carry in a mall? WTF does that mean? We have a second amendment, ccw's, training, and all the bullshit but you're worried about carrying in a mall? You act like the mall is some magical places that no one (except the police, of course) should carry.
Hate to break this to you but if it says you can't carry on premises you can't carry, whether you have CCW, 2nd amendment or whatever else you want to try to pull, private property is private property, you have no right to carry if agent of owner tells you, or states that you can't malls are private property, pretty much everything is private property except the road ways, public parks, and public buildings, otherwise you are on private property, and therefore have to follow their rules whether you like it our not.
You say that you should just show them your gun. And if you don't the cops will arrest you? Well goddamnit but I don't wanna show my piece and my ID when I'm just walking through the mall doing nothing. Perhaps the 4th Amendment applies here.
Nope usually I will just ask you to leave if you don't you will trespassed (also I should mention I really don't need any reason to make you from private property), if you give my attitude it will be anywhere form a year to forever, if you still give attitude the cops can deal with you
You say that you can't curse in front of women and children? Well that's a crock of shit too because we have a 1st Amendment. When I go out I hear offensive words all the time but I don't go crying to Johnny Law trying to get a peace disturbance or DC charge, half or more of which are bs anyways.
Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:
My suggestion would be to be polite and nice, as law enforcement is only a call, or radio page away in most cases. Then you can tell the LEO to fuck off too if you like although jail will probably be in your future in that case. Security Officers while not sworn officers in most cases, are just trying to do a job, so be polite to them they have a difficult job and are often put in situations the general public does not want to deal with. If suspected of shop lifting that in most cases the officer would have to observe, and you take the item, If don't reveal what you are carrying and the police are called, you will be detained until they arrive, how you choose to handle that is up to you. If you just show them what is in your pockets even if armed if you have not done anything wrong you will be on your way. In many states you are legally allowed to carry in a mall, I don't have any issue with those that decide to exercise that right, you will often find the most cases, security officers are gun people, oddly enough far more so than the average LEO, so dealing with one of them with out LEO intervention maybe a better option, unless carrying in a prohibited place. Telling a Security Officer to Fuck Off would be pretty much be the last thing I would do, also consider that by swearing in public in ear shot of children and women is going to almost guarantee you trip to jail for disorderly conduct. If carrying in a mall where prohibited you will probably just be escorted off the property and probably trespassed for a period of time if you didn't steal anything, this could be anywhere from a month to life, but this is still probably better than dealing with Law Enforcement and possibly going to court over it. Also in most cases if you are asked to show what you have in your pockets at least where I have worked you will be taken to an office outside of public view, therefore the rest of the public does not need to know whether you are carrying or not. Also most Security Officers don't just walk around all day and ask people if they are carrying honestly we have more important shit to do.
My suggestion would be to be polite and nice, as law enforcement is only a call, or radio page away in most cases. Then you can tell the LEO to fuck off too if you like although jail will probably be in your future in that case. Security Officers while not sworn officers in most cases, are just trying to do a job, so be polite to them they have a difficult job and are often put in situations the general public does not want to deal with. If suspected of shop lifting that in most cases the officer would have to observe, and you take the item, If don't reveal what you are carrying and the police are called, you will be detained until they arrive, how you choose to handle that is up to you. If you just show them what is in your pockets even if armed if you have not done anything wrong you will be on your way. In many states you are legally allowed to carry in a mall, I don't have any issue with those that decide to exercise that right, you will often find the most cases, security officers are gun people, oddly enough far more so than the average LEO, so dealing with one of them with out LEO intervention maybe a better option, unless carrying in a prohibited place. Telling a Security Officer to Fuck Off would be pretty much be the last thing I would do, also consider that by swearing in public in ear shot of children and women is going to almost guarantee you trip to jail for disorderly conduct. If carrying in a mall where prohibited you will probably just be escorted off the property and probably trespassed for a period of time if you didn't steal anything, this could be anywhere from a month to life, but this is still probably better than dealing with Law Enforcement and possibly going to court over it. Also in most cases if you are asked to show what you have in your pockets at least where I have worked you will be taken to an office outside of public view, therefore the rest of the public does not need to know whether you are carrying or not. Also most Security Officers don't just walk around all day and ask people if they are carrying honestly we have more important shit to do.
Wow how scared are you to exercise a right?
Not scared at all
You say some places "legally allow" you to carry in a mall? WTF does that mean? We have a second amendment, ccw's, training, and all the bullshit but you're worried about carrying in a mall? You act like the mall is some magical places that no one (except the police, of course) should carry.
Hate to break this to you but if it says you can't carry on premises you can't carry, whether you have CCW, 2nd amendment or whatever else you want to try to pull, private property is private property, you have no right to carry if agent of owner tells you, or states that you can't malls are private property, pretty much everything is private property except the road ways, public parks, and public buildings, otherwise you are on private property, and therefore have to follow their rules whether you like it our not.
You say that you should just show them your gun. And if you don't the cops will arrest you? Well goddamnit but I don't wanna show my piece and my ID when I'm just walking through the mall doing nothing. Perhaps the 4th Amendment applies here.
Nope usually I will just ask you to leave if you don't you will trespassed (also I should mention I really don't need any reason to make you from private property), if you give my attitude it will be anywhere form a year to forever, if you still give attitude the cops can deal with you
You say that you can't curse in front of women and children? Well that's a crock of shit too because we have a 1st Amendment. When I go out I hear offensive words all the time but I don't go crying to Johnny Law trying to get a peace disturbance or DC charge, half or more of which are bs anyways.
Well in many states there are laws against you swearing in public in front of children or women, man to man you are good, but otherwise outside your home you go to jail, 1st amendment doesn't apply to fight words by the way
3/19/2012 5:40:41 PM
Originally Posted By cash50:
Wow how scared are you to exercise a right?
You say some places "legally allow" you to carry in a mall? WTF does that mean? We have a second amendment, ccw's, training, and all the bullshit but you're worried about carrying in a mall? You act like the mall is some magical places that no one (except the police, of course) should carry.
You say that you should just show them your gun. And if you don't the cops will arrest you? Well goddamnit but I don't wanna show my piece and my ID when I'm just walking through the mall doing nothing. Perhaps the 4th Amendment applies here.
You say that you can't curse in front of women and children? Well that's a crock of shit too because we have a 1st Amendment. When I go out I hear offensive words all the time but I don't go crying to Johnny Law trying to get a peace disturbance or DC charge, half or more of which are bs anyways.
Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:
My suggestion would be to be polite and nice, as law enforcement is only a call, or radio page away in most cases. Then you can tell the LEO to fuck off too if you like although jail will probably be in your future in that case. Security Officers while not sworn officers in most cases, are just trying to do a job, so be polite to them they have a difficult job and are often put in situations the general public does not want to deal with. If suspected of shop lifting that in most cases the officer would have to observe, and you take the item, If don't reveal what you are carrying and the police are called, you will be detained until they arrive, how you choose to handle that is up to you. If you just show them what is in your pockets even if armed if you have not done anything wrong you will be on your way. In many states you are legally allowed to carry in a mall, I don't have any issue with those that decide to exercise that right, you will often find the most cases, security officers are gun people, oddly enough far more so than the average LEO, so dealing with one of them with out LEO intervention maybe a better option, unless carrying in a prohibited place. Telling a Security Officer to Fuck Off would be pretty much be the last thing I would do, also consider that by swearing in public in ear shot of children and women is going to almost guarantee you trip to jail for disorderly conduct. If carrying in a mall where prohibited you will probably just be escorted off the property and probably trespassed for a period of time if you didn't steal anything, this could be anywhere from a month to life, but this is still probably better than dealing with Law Enforcement and possibly going to court over it. Also in most cases if you are asked to show what you have in your pockets at least where I have worked you will be taken to an office outside of public view, therefore the rest of the public does not need to know whether you are carrying or not. Also most Security Officers don't just walk around all day and ask people if they are carrying honestly we have more important shit to do.
My suggestion would be to be polite and nice, as law enforcement is only a call, or radio page away in most cases. Then you can tell the LEO to fuck off too if you like although jail will probably be in your future in that case. Security Officers while not sworn officers in most cases, are just trying to do a job, so be polite to them they have a difficult job and are often put in situations the general public does not want to deal with. If suspected of shop lifting that in most cases the officer would have to observe, and you take the item, If don't reveal what you are carrying and the police are called, you will be detained until they arrive, how you choose to handle that is up to you. If you just show them what is in your pockets even if armed if you have not done anything wrong you will be on your way. In many states you are legally allowed to carry in a mall, I don't have any issue with those that decide to exercise that right, you will often find the most cases, security officers are gun people, oddly enough far more so than the average LEO, so dealing with one of them with out LEO intervention maybe a better option, unless carrying in a prohibited place. Telling a Security Officer to Fuck Off would be pretty much be the last thing I would do, also consider that by swearing in public in ear shot of children and women is going to almost guarantee you trip to jail for disorderly conduct. If carrying in a mall where prohibited you will probably just be escorted off the property and probably trespassed for a period of time if you didn't steal anything, this could be anywhere from a month to life, but this is still probably better than dealing with Law Enforcement and possibly going to court over it. Also in most cases if you are asked to show what you have in your pockets at least where I have worked you will be taken to an office outside of public view, therefore the rest of the public does not need to know whether you are carrying or not. Also most Security Officers don't just walk around all day and ask people if they are carrying honestly we have more important shit to do.
Wow how scared are you to exercise a right?
You say some places "legally allow" you to carry in a mall? WTF does that mean? We have a second amendment, ccw's, training, and all the bullshit but you're worried about carrying in a mall? You act like the mall is some magical places that no one (except the police, of course) should carry.
You say that you should just show them your gun. And if you don't the cops will arrest you? Well goddamnit but I don't wanna show my piece and my ID when I'm just walking through the mall doing nothing. Perhaps the 4th Amendment applies here.
You say that you can't curse in front of women and children? Well that's a crock of shit too because we have a 1st Amendment. When I go out I hear offensive words all the time but I don't go crying to Johnny Law trying to get a peace disturbance or DC charge, half or more of which are bs anyways.
I hate to be a wet blanket but nearly 90% of "mall cops" don't give a shit what you do unless you're doing something that requires them to act. Having worked at a mall as security before I wouldn't give anyone crap about firearms (OC or CC) until someone complained. We were there as liability mitigation more than anything. My top priorities for the night were to go home & not get in trouble (in that order). Officially the policy was to call PD & have them tell anyone carrying to leave. I've done it myself once bc the guy was really no threat at all.
All that said:
1) The owners are thinking in a mindset of mitigating liability & keeping a positive non-threatening image. People are sheep and think a man with a gun is a bad thing. Since they think it's a bad thing they won't come there & shop. People don't shop there, stores go under and so does the mall. Your "rights" are taking a backseat to their potential income.
2) You're most likely on private property. Their property, their rules. If you don't like them then leave. Don't want to leave? Tough shit, now you're not welcome back and Officer Friendly will be detaining you, they will be pressing charges.
3) Cop an attitude and...see above. I wasn't paid enough to deal with assholes (let alone armed assholes).
3/19/2012 10:57:20 PM
And now you MUST leave, why? Because I said so, for two reasons, 1. I think you have a gun (And the policy of the place is NO GUNS, or MY policy is NO GUNS as I am an AGENT of the owner)
3/19/2012 11:40:29 PM
Originally Posted By America-first:
And now you MUST leave, why? Because I said so, for two reasons, 1. I think you have a gun (And the policy of the place is NO GUNS, or MY policy is NO GUNS as I am an AGENT of the owner)
[img]http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_freak.gif[/mig]
And now you MUST leave, why? Because I said so, for two reasons, 1. I think you have a gun (And the policy of the place is NO GUNS, or MY policy is NO GUNS as I am an AGENT of the owner)
[img]http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_freak.gif[/mig]
Meh, it's his decision & he's responsible for the property. Take up the policy with the owners if you've got a problem, otherwise don't go there.
It's stunning the amount of people who assume their right to carry negates the property owner's right to regulate what goes on in their properties.
3/19/2012 11:55:50 PM
You all are overcomplicating this. If a security guard wants to search you, either leave, comply, or inform them that they can call the police and you'll wait (depending on your local laws). If you haven't stolen anything, the police won't find anything. I'd rather the police be there when I show my CCW. In NoVA, there's no telling what the min wage security guard knows about CCW laws and they're likely to call the police anyway.
3/20/2012 12:39:29 AM
Originally Posted By JordanJP:
Some of the responses in this thread had me cracking up.
Paul Blart, indeed.
Some of the responses in this thread had me cracking up.
Paul Blart, indeed.
Which responses?
3/20/2012 6:45:15 AM
Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:
My suggestion would be to be polite and nice, as law enforcement is only a call, or radio page away in most cases. Then you can tell the LEO to fuck off too if you like although jail will probably be in your future in that case. Security Officers while not sworn officers in most cases, are just trying to do a job, so be polite to them they have a difficult job and are often put in situations the general public does not want to deal with. If suspected of shop lifting that in most cases the officer would have to observe, and you take the item, If don't reveal what you are carrying and the police are called, you will be detained until they arrive, how you choose to handle that is up to you. If you just show them what is in your pockets even if armed if you have not done anything wrong you will be on your way. In many states you are legally allowed to carry in a mall, I don't have any issue with those that decide to exercise that right, you will often find the most cases, security officers are gun people, oddly enough far more so than the average LEO, so dealing with one of them with out LEO intervention maybe a better option, unless carrying in a prohibited place. Telling a Security Officer to Fuck Off would be pretty much be the last thing I would do, also consider that by swearing in public in ear shot of children and women is going to almost guarantee you trip to jail for disorderly conduct. If carrying in a mall where prohibited you will probably just be escorted off the property and probably trespassed for a period of time if you didn't steal anything, this could be anywhere from a month to life, but this is still probably better than dealing with Law Enforcement and possibly going to court over it. Also in most cases if you are asked to show what you have in your pockets at least where I have worked you will be taken to an office outside of public view, therefore the rest of the public does not need to know whether you are carrying or not. Also most Security Officers don't just walk around all day and ask people if they are carrying honestly we have more important shit to do.
My suggestion would be to be polite and nice, as law enforcement is only a call, or radio page away in most cases. Then you can tell the LEO to fuck off too if you like although jail will probably be in your future in that case. Security Officers while not sworn officers in most cases, are just trying to do a job, so be polite to them they have a difficult job and are often put in situations the general public does not want to deal with. If suspected of shop lifting that in most cases the officer would have to observe, and you take the item, If don't reveal what you are carrying and the police are called, you will be detained until they arrive, how you choose to handle that is up to you. If you just show them what is in your pockets even if armed if you have not done anything wrong you will be on your way. In many states you are legally allowed to carry in a mall, I don't have any issue with those that decide to exercise that right, you will often find the most cases, security officers are gun people, oddly enough far more so than the average LEO, so dealing with one of them with out LEO intervention maybe a better option, unless carrying in a prohibited place. Telling a Security Officer to Fuck Off would be pretty much be the last thing I would do, also consider that by swearing in public in ear shot of children and women is going to almost guarantee you trip to jail for disorderly conduct. If carrying in a mall where prohibited you will probably just be escorted off the property and probably trespassed for a period of time if you didn't steal anything, this could be anywhere from a month to life, but this is still probably better than dealing with Law Enforcement and possibly going to court over it. Also in most cases if you are asked to show what you have in your pockets at least where I have worked you will be taken to an office outside of public view, therefore the rest of the public does not need to know whether you are carrying or not. Also most Security Officers don't just walk around all day and ask people if they are carrying honestly we have more important shit to do.
Sorry but this whole post is full of
. You will not detain anyone while the cops are on their way unless you actually saw them commit some crime. And if you tried to for suspecting someone having a gun, you will probably be laughed at. Sure you can ask them to leave for any reason and if they don't the cops can be called but that has nothing to do with the gun.
Years ago I worked security, not in a mall though. When people were told to leave and they wouldn't we'd call the cops because that was sop. Sure they can be arrested for trespass, but doesn't mean they are going to. In the dozens of people I've had to have the PD get involved with, zero were ever arrested. It simply wasn't worth the cops time. They would just escort the guy off property. The same would be true for someone swearing. No way would any cop arrest someone that.
And if you do put a trespass order against them, do you really anyone in your department is going to study your PNG list and hunt down prohibited persons all day? No way. You pass by hundreds of people a day and all the faces eventually blur together. And if you do find a png, are you going to politely ask them to come to the back room to wait for the police? guess what the answer would be...
And seriously no offense is meant by this, but security isn't a difficult job. I've done it myself. If it was truly a difficult job it would pay more than $10/hr.
My advice to the OP as other have said, be polite but refuse. If they get high and mighty with their empty threats then laugh and walk away.
3/20/2012 7:50:16 AM
Originally Posted By NPH_1985:
Meh, it's his decision & he's responsible for the property. Take up the policy with the owners if you've got a problem, otherwise don't go there.
It's stunning the amount of people who assume their right to carry negates the property owner's right to regulate what goes on in their properties.
Originally Posted By America-first:
And now you MUST leave, why? Because I said so, for two reasons, 1. I think you have a gun (And the policy of the place is NO GUNS, or MY policy is NO GUNS as I am an AGENT of the owner)
[url]http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_freak.gif[/mig]
And now you MUST leave, why? Because I said so, for two reasons, 1. I think you have a gun (And the policy of the place is NO GUNS, or MY policy is NO GUNS as I am an AGENT of the owner)
[url]http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_freak.gif[/mig]
Meh, it's his decision & he's responsible for the property. Take up the policy with the owners if you've got a problem, otherwise don't go there.
It's stunning the amount of people who assume their right to carry negates the property owner's right to regulate what goes on in their properties.
Meh; some individuals believe that a dime store uniform, badge and some fancy patch on their arm conveys to them super powers to order others around and set official policy in contradiction to that already set in place by the owners.
Blart is really all puffed up and full of himself in this thread.
He walks the mall for a couple of bucks an hour checking out the females; but he doesn't personally get to set mall policy regarding CCW.
If he behaves himself; sometimes he gets to ride the Segway though.
My stepson is a Blart and he's a good kid; but he fantasizes too much over what his "authority" is and expects to stop the next Al Queda attack single handedly.
With the .38 revolver he carries at his job and which he really believes is a cosmic death ray of some sort.
But even he understands that he doesn't set the rules for properties that aren't posted no CCW.
3/20/2012 5:38:31 PM
I carry at malls all the time, see security and police officers there as well. I suppose if I were confronted by security who wanted to see my firearm, I would comply. Im usually with my wife and kids, and causing a scene is the last thing I want to do, and shows a lesson on respecting authority to the kids., whether its a 8 dollar an hour security guard or not. Im on the property he represents, and I feel I must obey their rules of suffer the consequences. Working for a PD, I certainly dont want to lose my job, or my CCW for that matter, so I'd just show the guard my gun and permit. As long as ive done nothing wrong, Im on my way. Why complicate things and get the PD involved? 
