Archived Posts » 60,595,333
On goning range history - AR24
6/7/2007 9:47:59 PM
I have recorded the malfunctions that I have experienced and why those occured. In a nut shell, I have put over 700 rounds through this new model. The first 300 were flawless; the next four hundred resulted in malfuntions of failure to return to battery after total count of approximately 500.
The gun had sludged out. I thought in the begining that the spring was too stiff. I was experincing rounds that were partially chambered along with a retarded motion of the slide movement. I had been told by a factory rep on AR15.com (AKA ArmaLite) that the AR24 was made for 9mm NATO rounds. So, I assumed the spring may be too stiff for Winchester White Box Value Pak. But, if that were the case, why did it work well for the first 500 rounds? Note: there was an extensve cleaning after the first 300 rounds.
After continual malfuntions, all of the same type, I scratched off what looked to be dried sludge from the feed ramp. The gun ran fine with some retarded slide returns. I have since, cleaned the AR24 well, and will return to the range this week end. I'll let you know. That's why in my above post I stated that I would not recommend the AR24 until a four month period has passed.
Next range date is this weekend.
I have edited this to include the original range report.
www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249285
The gun had sludged out. I thought in the begining that the spring was too stiff. I was experincing rounds that were partially chambered along with a retarded motion of the slide movement. I had been told by a factory rep on AR15.com (AKA ArmaLite) that the AR24 was made for 9mm NATO rounds. So, I assumed the spring may be too stiff for Winchester White Box Value Pak. But, if that were the case, why did it work well for the first 500 rounds? Note: there was an extensve cleaning after the first 300 rounds.
After continual malfuntions, all of the same type, I scratched off what looked to be dried sludge from the feed ramp. The gun ran fine with some retarded slide returns. I have since, cleaned the AR24 well, and will return to the range this week end. I'll let you know. That's why in my above post I stated that I would not recommend the AR24 until a four month period has passed.
Next range date is this weekend.
I have edited this to include the original range report.
www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249285
6/9/2007 4:58:05 PM
June 09 2007 Saturday.
I shot 400 more rounds today through my AR-24.
The first 100 I shot paper, and warmed myself up for the plates. I then went to the plates, and before I shot another 50 rounds, I noticed that the slide began to act a little sluggish. It had behaved like this on my last trip, so I was prepared. While at Wal Mart this morning in quest of my ammo, I picked up a can of CLP. I broke the AR down wiped off as much debris as possible, and performd a quick lube on the handun. I put it back together, and shot another 100 rounds on the plate. No malfunctions, no retardation of the slide, it just kept on shooting. I then went back to the B-27, and shot paper for the final 100 rounds. Point of aiim is where they hit. It was a fun 2 hours. That pushed the total ammo count up to 1100 rounds. The only malfunctions I have ever had were on a previous range trip and were due to a debris build up, which I will explain now.
Two weeks ago, I had the same filth and sludge build up in my P7M8. I had also used Rem Oil. I noticed when I got home that the slide was difficult to move. It was almost frozen. I thought at first the gas chamber and piston were carbon caked, but this was not the case. I had used Tetra Gun Libricant in the passed with all of my autoloaders with good results. I will start with that next week, and will report back with the results.
At this point, I would say that I am very satisfied with the AR-24. Of my few complaints, I would have to say that the safety is a little difficult to reach.
Appearance.
It is easy to see the differences just in appearance between the AR-24 and the CZ's. The AR-24 has more defined angles. You can tell it is forged. The CZ has that cast look to it. The more you shoot it and spend time with it, the more you see these small details. My hope is to put about 2-3K more rounds through it within the next 2-3 months. I will also dry fire the AR-24 heavily. I'm obsessive, so this won't be a problem for me. I wish to see if the slide stop, springs and extractor holds up. Lots of shooting and dry firing is the only way to test this. These problems seem to be the paramount problems with the CZ's.
1100 rounds to date
Dobe
I shot 400 more rounds today through my AR-24.
The first 100 I shot paper, and warmed myself up for the plates. I then went to the plates, and before I shot another 50 rounds, I noticed that the slide began to act a little sluggish. It had behaved like this on my last trip, so I was prepared. While at Wal Mart this morning in quest of my ammo, I picked up a can of CLP. I broke the AR down wiped off as much debris as possible, and performd a quick lube on the handun. I put it back together, and shot another 100 rounds on the plate. No malfunctions, no retardation of the slide, it just kept on shooting. I then went back to the B-27, and shot paper for the final 100 rounds. Point of aiim is where they hit. It was a fun 2 hours. That pushed the total ammo count up to 1100 rounds. The only malfunctions I have ever had were on a previous range trip and were due to a debris build up, which I will explain now.
Two weeks ago, I had the same filth and sludge build up in my P7M8. I had also used Rem Oil. I noticed when I got home that the slide was difficult to move. It was almost frozen. I thought at first the gas chamber and piston were carbon caked, but this was not the case. I had used Tetra Gun Libricant in the passed with all of my autoloaders with good results. I will start with that next week, and will report back with the results.
At this point, I would say that I am very satisfied with the AR-24. Of my few complaints, I would have to say that the safety is a little difficult to reach.
Appearance.
It is easy to see the differences just in appearance between the AR-24 and the CZ's. The AR-24 has more defined angles. You can tell it is forged. The CZ has that cast look to it. The more you shoot it and spend time with it, the more you see these small details. My hope is to put about 2-3K more rounds through it within the next 2-3 months. I will also dry fire the AR-24 heavily. I'm obsessive, so this won't be a problem for me. I wish to see if the slide stop, springs and extractor holds up. Lots of shooting and dry firing is the only way to test this. These problems seem to be the paramount problems with the CZ's.
1100 rounds to date
Dobe
6/10/2007 7:23:08 PM
Damn Dobe, you're the kind of purchaser that scares the hell out of manufacturers.
Thanks for your reports.
Thanks for your reports.
6/10/2007 7:44:27 PM
| Originally Posted By ArmaLite: Damn Dobe, you're the kind of purchaser that scares the hell out of manufacturers. Thanks for your reports. |
Yeah, keep up the good work!
6/14/2007 9:04:55 PM
I have been spending the week dry-firing. I am getting more accustomed to the trigger break. I dry-fired several hundred times tonight. I purchased a spring loaded snap caps made by Beretta. They work well, but after the first day, I felt that this would not be a true test. Therefore, I am not using any cushions for the dry-firing excercises.
So far-so good.
I'm on the road, and in the Charleston area. If I can find a local range, I'll shoot another 3-400 rounds this weekend.
Dobe
So far-so good.
I'm on the road, and in the Charleston area. If I can find a local range, I'll shoot another 3-400 rounds this weekend.
Dobe
6/16/2007 5:50:25 PM
June 16th, 2007 Saturday.
I am in South Carolina on business, so I brought my AR-24 with me. I found a range in Summerville; it is ATP Gunshop and Range. It's good place to shoot, and the people are very friendly.
I had bought a box of reloads (250) at Dick's Sporting goods, a box of Winchester Value Pak at Wal Mart, and I tried to find a cheap box of hollow points, but Wal Mart didn't have any.
First of all, let me say that all rounds were malfunction free. After my last shoot, I cleaned well and lubed the AR-24 with Tetra. It ran great. There was no more of the sluggish slide. Every round was as good as the first.
I did have a problem with the grouping of the reloads. They were RN cast bullets of mixed brass. I didn't expect the best accuracy, and I wasn't disappointed. I shot those first, and finished up with the Winchester Value Pak. My groups shrank by as much as 3" at 50' after I moved onto the Winchester Value Pak. That is drastic I know. I am not saying the AR-24 will not shoot cast bullets well. I will say my AR-24 will not shoot those cast rounds well.
I did experience a problem I noticed the first time I shot the AR-24. After about 150 rounds, the grips loosen. I carry a screwdriver set, but this is still annoying. I didn't want to tighten the grips too tight for fear of breaking the wood.
Today's round count: 350
Total round count: 1450
Dobe
I am in South Carolina on business, so I brought my AR-24 with me. I found a range in Summerville; it is ATP Gunshop and Range. It's good place to shoot, and the people are very friendly.
I had bought a box of reloads (250) at Dick's Sporting goods, a box of Winchester Value Pak at Wal Mart, and I tried to find a cheap box of hollow points, but Wal Mart didn't have any.
First of all, let me say that all rounds were malfunction free. After my last shoot, I cleaned well and lubed the AR-24 with Tetra. It ran great. There was no more of the sluggish slide. Every round was as good as the first.
I did have a problem with the grouping of the reloads. They were RN cast bullets of mixed brass. I didn't expect the best accuracy, and I wasn't disappointed. I shot those first, and finished up with the Winchester Value Pak. My groups shrank by as much as 3" at 50' after I moved onto the Winchester Value Pak. That is drastic I know. I am not saying the AR-24 will not shoot cast bullets well. I will say my AR-24 will not shoot those cast rounds well.
I did experience a problem I noticed the first time I shot the AR-24. After about 150 rounds, the grips loosen. I carry a screwdriver set, but this is still annoying. I didn't want to tighten the grips too tight for fear of breaking the wood.
Today's round count: 350
Total round count: 1450
Dobe
6/18/2007 5:10:15 PM
Thanks Dobe for the report! 
This is the kind of info we need!
This is the kind of info we need!
6/18/2007 9:14:12 PM
I'm still dry-firing....a lot.
Dobe
Dobe
6/19/2007 1:33:35 PM
I'm still dry-firing....a lot. Dobe |
So is your bicep starting to bulge from all the exercise? :)
-- Sam
6/19/2007 2:51:10 PM
Dobe, would you say there is any advantage of getting the AR-24 over the CZ75?
6/19/2007 5:54:06 PM
Sam,
My bicept is not bulging, but my trigger finger on both hands stays swollen as well as my thumbs. My thumbs stay swollen obviously, because I have to keep cocking the AR-24. Gives me something to do in the hotel, I guess.
LA_357SIG
My thought on the AR-24 vs the CZ-75B: At this time it is a lilttle too early to tell. I can tell you this, I have a CZ 75 B, and I have enjoyed it. Although I do enjoy it, there are common problems with CZ's. Those common problems with CZ handguns are the springs, the extractor, and the slide stop. The CZ comes in at such a good price, most people will simply correct the problems and keep going. That's why you hear "CZ is a great gun for the money". I am hoping to tell you in about another month "The AR-24 is a great gun, and worth the money". The AR-24 does cost more. It cost more, but you get a forged frame and slide, and I am hoping the springs, slide stop and other internals are up to the task. That's why we pay more, right?
So far, out of all of the rounds I have put through my AR-24, the only malfunctions I have had can be traced back to a lubricant I was using. If you read this entire thread, you will see I had the same problem when using that lubricant with a P7M8. If you know of the P7's, you know they have a reputation for reliability (sorta like a Glock but on steroids). The magazine springs of the AR-24 are good. I load each one to max each time I load, and then I fire all 15 rounds before I reload. I could break a trigger rebound spring tomorrow by dry-firing it. That is a common problem with some handguns, especially when dry-firing rapidly. The srpring cannot cool down, and therefore snaps; I have broken a few trigger rebound springs on other handguns. So far, the springs of the AR have held up well.
I will also find out how tough the Ar-24'S firing pin stop is. I understand that this too is a problem for some CZ handguns. So, we will see. If the AR-24 fails, I will let you know. I can't expect any handgun to withstand abuse. If I have pushed it too far, I will also state this. Other than continual (and not actual constant) dry-firing at night, I am not doing anything that would stress out a sound handgun.
By the way, where in La do you live. I live in B.R.
Dobe
My bicept is not bulging, but my trigger finger on both hands stays swollen as well as my thumbs. My thumbs stay swollen obviously, because I have to keep cocking the AR-24. Gives me something to do in the hotel, I guess.
LA_357SIG
My thought on the AR-24 vs the CZ-75B: At this time it is a lilttle too early to tell. I can tell you this, I have a CZ 75 B, and I have enjoyed it. Although I do enjoy it, there are common problems with CZ's. Those common problems with CZ handguns are the springs, the extractor, and the slide stop. The CZ comes in at such a good price, most people will simply correct the problems and keep going. That's why you hear "CZ is a great gun for the money". I am hoping to tell you in about another month "The AR-24 is a great gun, and worth the money". The AR-24 does cost more. It cost more, but you get a forged frame and slide, and I am hoping the springs, slide stop and other internals are up to the task. That's why we pay more, right?
So far, out of all of the rounds I have put through my AR-24, the only malfunctions I have had can be traced back to a lubricant I was using. If you read this entire thread, you will see I had the same problem when using that lubricant with a P7M8. If you know of the P7's, you know they have a reputation for reliability (sorta like a Glock but on steroids). The magazine springs of the AR-24 are good. I load each one to max each time I load, and then I fire all 15 rounds before I reload. I could break a trigger rebound spring tomorrow by dry-firing it. That is a common problem with some handguns, especially when dry-firing rapidly. The srpring cannot cool down, and therefore snaps; I have broken a few trigger rebound springs on other handguns. So far, the springs of the AR have held up well.
I will also find out how tough the Ar-24'S firing pin stop is. I understand that this too is a problem for some CZ handguns. So, we will see. If the AR-24 fails, I will let you know. I can't expect any handgun to withstand abuse. If I have pushed it too far, I will also state this. Other than continual (and not actual constant) dry-firing at night, I am not doing anything that would stress out a sound handgun.
By the way, where in La do you live. I live in B.R.
Dobe
6/22/2007 9:40:20 PM
I have been thinking about buying an AR-24.
I have an Ar10 and it has been top notch.
Glad I stopped by here to check first.
Great job on the review and will keep checking in.
Only down side is it is only in 9mm....really leaning towards a 40 (for concealed carry)
Plus side is I sold my 9mm about 2 years ago and got a lot of ammo just sitting around.
BTW... it makes people nervous to see someone keep cocking and dry- firing a pistol so keep and eye out that you don't start mumbling to yourself.
Just kidding keep up the good work.
What everyone's opinion on the Glock 27 (40 cal)?
I have an Ar10 and it has been top notch.
Glad I stopped by here to check first.
Great job on the review and will keep checking in.
Only down side is it is only in 9mm....really leaning towards a 40 (for concealed carry)
Plus side is I sold my 9mm about 2 years ago and got a lot of ammo just sitting around.
BTW... it makes people nervous to see someone keep cocking and dry- firing a pistol so keep and eye out that you don't start mumbling to yourself.
Just kidding keep up the good work.
What everyone's opinion on the Glock 27 (40 cal)?
6/22/2007 10:06:20 PM
| BTW... it makes people nervous to see someone keep cocking and dry- firing a pistol so keep and eye out that you don't start mumbling to yourself. |
Still dry-firing.....................I have dry-fired from 7-10pm. When I wasn't aiming and dry-firing, I would simply hold and work the hammer and trigger. It will be nice to be able to shoot tomorrow.
6/23/2007 7:26:18 PM
June 23, 3007 Saturday
I just got back from A.T.P. indoor range in Summerville, SC. I took 300 rounds with me, and secured a B-27 target at the range. I usually start with large target, and then put the shoot-n-see bulls on it after the first two magazines.
I had what I thought was my first legitimate malfunction while into my third box of ammo. It was another failure to return to battery. So, I thought "damn", I can't believe it. I tried to push the slide forward, but it wouldn't go into battery. I then ejected the round, and reloaded it into the magazine. I attempted to chamber a round, and the slide again would not go into battery. I ejected the round, and upon examining the round I noticed a crinkle in the mouth. I'm a reloader, so I realize what I had happened here. Winchester goofed up on this one round. While loading this round at the factory apparently the bullet wasn't aligned when it was seated into the mouth of the brass resulting in the crinkled brass syndrome. I'm sure all of you reloaders have seen this more than you wish.
The grips still come loose, and it worries me, because the more this happens under recoil, the larger the screw holes will get over time. I also was pinged in the fore head twice on the last shot of a magazine. This only happened twice, and if it continues, I will mark the magazines.
The AR-24 again ran well. I shot it better today than I have before. Perhaps all of that dry-firing has paid off. The trigger is smoothing out nicely too. The dry-firing has helped with that too. I am a fanatic about a nice trigger. To me, the trigger and the sights are the link to the handgun. Next comes ergonomics. On a scale of 1-5, the AR-24 gets a 5 on ergonomics, a 3.5 for sights. My sights on this handgun are fixed. The AR-24 sights are not Novaks, but they are not bad at all. On trigger pull, I give the AR-24 a 3.9. It is the typical long camming trigger you find on CZ design types. It really isn't bad as long as it is smooth. What I have found is that as long as I keep it lubed with Tetra Gun Lube, it is fairly smooth. It could be better, but on most of today's out of the box guns, you get what you get. As picky as I am about triggers, a 3.9 isn't bad. I like the gun.
Today's round count: 299
Total round count: 1749
I just got back from A.T.P. indoor range in Summerville, SC. I took 300 rounds with me, and secured a B-27 target at the range. I usually start with large target, and then put the shoot-n-see bulls on it after the first two magazines.
I had what I thought was my first legitimate malfunction while into my third box of ammo. It was another failure to return to battery. So, I thought "damn", I can't believe it. I tried to push the slide forward, but it wouldn't go into battery. I then ejected the round, and reloaded it into the magazine. I attempted to chamber a round, and the slide again would not go into battery. I ejected the round, and upon examining the round I noticed a crinkle in the mouth. I'm a reloader, so I realize what I had happened here. Winchester goofed up on this one round. While loading this round at the factory apparently the bullet wasn't aligned when it was seated into the mouth of the brass resulting in the crinkled brass syndrome. I'm sure all of you reloaders have seen this more than you wish.
The grips still come loose, and it worries me, because the more this happens under recoil, the larger the screw holes will get over time. I also was pinged in the fore head twice on the last shot of a magazine. This only happened twice, and if it continues, I will mark the magazines.
The AR-24 again ran well. I shot it better today than I have before. Perhaps all of that dry-firing has paid off. The trigger is smoothing out nicely too. The dry-firing has helped with that too. I am a fanatic about a nice trigger. To me, the trigger and the sights are the link to the handgun. Next comes ergonomics. On a scale of 1-5, the AR-24 gets a 5 on ergonomics, a 3.5 for sights. My sights on this handgun are fixed. The AR-24 sights are not Novaks, but they are not bad at all. On trigger pull, I give the AR-24 a 3.9. It is the typical long camming trigger you find on CZ design types. It really isn't bad as long as it is smooth. What I have found is that as long as I keep it lubed with Tetra Gun Lube, it is fairly smooth. It could be better, but on most of today's out of the box guns, you get what you get. As picky as I am about triggers, a 3.9 isn't bad. I like the gun.
Today's round count: 299
Total round count: 1749
6/24/2007 9:19:33 AM
Looseness of the grip screws is a new one on us. We haven't noted this in our own previous firing.
Two thoughts.
First, does your 24 have the optional wood or standard rubber grips? The rubber grips tend to grip and lock the screws. It's possible that wood grips don't do that as well. If you've got wood grips we'll send you rubber to try.
You've fired more rounds through your pistol than most customers will in a decade. This is working out to a great test.
Two thoughts.
First, does your 24 have the optional wood or standard rubber grips? The rubber grips tend to grip and lock the screws. It's possible that wood grips don't do that as well. If you've got wood grips we'll send you rubber to try.
You've fired more rounds through your pistol than most customers will in a decade. This is working out to a great test.
6/24/2007 10:03:18 AM
I have the wood grips, and would appreciate the others. Anything you send me will be returned after a short evaluation. This is my requirement as I wish to maintain objectivity. I'm sure you understand. If you will contact me via e-mail, I will send you my address. I will be on the road for another month. I am in South Carolina now, but will be in Georgia in a week or two. You can send the grips to my hotel. I generally shoot on the weekends.
Unlike before, nowadays people put a lot of ammo through handguns. The shooting sports have taught us that there are platforms that will handle 100,000 rounds. I have always liked the way CZ handguns felt, pointed and shot. I just never liked the quality. I'm looking for a CZ replacement. Maybe the AR-24 can be it.
After I leave South Carolina, I will be shooting at an indoor range in Norcross, Ga.
Thank You,
Dobe
| You've fired more rounds through your pistol than most customers will in a decade. This is working out to a great test. |
Unlike before, nowadays people put a lot of ammo through handguns. The shooting sports have taught us that there are platforms that will handle 100,000 rounds. I have always liked the way CZ handguns felt, pointed and shot. I just never liked the quality. I'm looking for a CZ replacement. Maybe the AR-24 can be it.
After I leave South Carolina, I will be shooting at an indoor range in Norcross, Ga.
Thank You,
Dobe
6/26/2007 8:52:54 PM
Dry-firing
Dobe
Dobe
6/27/2007 7:14:22 PM
| Originally Posted By Dobe: I have a CZ 75 B, and I have enjoyed it. Although I do enjoy it, there are common problems with CZ's. Those common problems with CZ handguns are the springs, the extractor, and the slide stop. |
First, let me say that I am NOT one of those that can't stand a little competition in the marketplace. Competition is healthy and I respect it. I switched cold-turkey from the 1911 to the CZ-75 platform for my competitive shooting and daily carry a little over a year ago and have not taken one look back (I know, blasphemy). The AR-24 looks to be a solid and great looking weapon. I have yet to fondle one, but I really love the cosmetics. That said, I have to take issue with your comment above regarding "common problems" to CZs. Perhaps I misunderstand your intent, but I read that to mean that ALL CZs exhibit these issues. Of my three, a 75B with well over 4K rounds through it a 75 Compact and a 40B, I have yet to have one single issue, be that a malfunction or a breakage of any sort. A have replaced grips and sights only. All springs are original, as are the slide stop and extractor, in all my guns. I tend to think that those that are having issues are the exception, rather than the rule. After all, it's easier to complain that praise, and that's most often what you read about-- people having problems. I expect that that is similar for most other reputable gun manufacturers as well. This I will say: the finish on my CZs is not great, and the Ar-24 certainly looks to excel here! All of my CZs have the black polycoat finish. My 75B is a 6 out of 10 on finish, my 40B is a 9.5 and my Compact 75 is a lowly 5 or so. The finish is tough as nails, just not consistent n application, it seems. That said, like everything else, this may very well be the exception and not the rule. Who knows? We can only speak from our experience, I suppose.
Anyway, continue your fine report. I love the potential of the Ar-24 and just may add one to my collection someday.
6/27/2007 7:43:35 PM
Thanks for looking in, and the comments. I hate to slam a gun, and I didn't mean to slam yours. My comments are based upon what I have seen at ranges, read about on the internet, and of course my own experience. I like CZ handguns, but have found that they do have a few problems. That doesn't mean that every CZ will experience those problems. The slide stop issue is a more common problem than you may think. CZ supplies or did supply an extra slide stop with their Tactical Sport. I don't know of any other manufacturer which does this. If I'm not mistaken, CZ suggest replacing their slide stops every 1500 rounds. That to me means CZ is fully aware of this problem. The springs are yet another issue.
I have always like the CZ design. It feels great. It points very well, and it shoots well. I have just felt there is a lack in the quality of the handgun. Even the casting (to me) looks a little less than what you would see on a Ruger or other cast guns. If the AR-24 doesn't make it for me, I will let you know. And at that point, I guess I'll still be disappointed.
By no means would I avodcate ridding yourself of your CZ's. They are working great, and giving you everything you want in a handgun. I am still a 1911 kinda-guy, and own several Kimbers. Most of the Kimbers I own are the Pre Series I. I can remember seeing problems on ranges with malfunctions, reading about MIM breakage, and finaly seeing a Master Kimber dealer in Raleigh, NC refusing to sell another Kimber handgun. Most of these problems involved the Series II models. This was all due to the lack of quality that Kimber displayed during that time period. It does happen, and Kimber suffered for it. I might add, they iimproved because of this also. They learned. I still like my Kimbers, but I do realize what Kimber's quality was at that time.
Thanks again
Still dry-firing.
Dobe
I have always like the CZ design. It feels great. It points very well, and it shoots well. I have just felt there is a lack in the quality of the handgun. Even the casting (to me) looks a little less than what you would see on a Ruger or other cast guns. If the AR-24 doesn't make it for me, I will let you know. And at that point, I guess I'll still be disappointed.
By no means would I avodcate ridding yourself of your CZ's. They are working great, and giving you everything you want in a handgun. I am still a 1911 kinda-guy, and own several Kimbers. Most of the Kimbers I own are the Pre Series I. I can remember seeing problems on ranges with malfunctions, reading about MIM breakage, and finaly seeing a Master Kimber dealer in Raleigh, NC refusing to sell another Kimber handgun. Most of these problems involved the Series II models. This was all due to the lack of quality that Kimber displayed during that time period. It does happen, and Kimber suffered for it. I might add, they iimproved because of this also. They learned. I still like my Kimbers, but I do realize what Kimber's quality was at that time.
Thanks again
Still dry-firing.
Dobe
6/28/2007 12:13:03 PM
Hey, Dobe. Thanks for the response. I certainly take no offense; as you said, this was according to your experience. I just think it's important to show the other side, since I do think that most of the reports you read are about problems. It's more rare for someone to post when everything is working well. Those of us in that situation are out shooting, right? :) I was thinking about all this last night, and have concluded that it would be a good idea to have a spare parts kit for my CZs like I do for my AR. A replacement slidestop and trigger return spring, at the very least, is probably prudent. Other springs (mainspring, recoil springs) can be obtained much more easily (and quickly, I'm sure), so they wouldn't be as critical to include in my emergency parts kit.
About 1911s... I love them as well, and own two-- both Springfields. I have never owned a Kimber, but have looked at a few. The design of the 1911 is so brilliant in it's simplicity. With that, you may be wondering why I switched to the CZ 75 platform. Mainly, I wanted a 9mm handgun since .45 prices were going through the roof. I wasn't reloading then. I was looking for a HighPower and was talked into giving the CZ a try by my 1911/HighPower smith. As much work as he performs on HighPowers, he seemed to thing that the CZ was a better weapon. I bought one and was in love. I've since abandoned my 1911s for carry also. I will bet my life on my CZ any time and that I couldn't say about my 1911s. 98–99% reliability STILL isn't 100%, after all. I'm certainly not implying that a 1911 can't be 100% reliable-- many are. I'm just saying that mine weren't; and I didn't want to have to take the time and expense to make them so. There's something to be said about a gun that comes out of the box that you don't immediately want to customize. The CZ was this for me-- a tool that just works. Plus, I feel more comfortable knowing that I have twice the number of rounds in the magazine for the times when my fine motor skills may fail me in a crisis situation.
I look forward to hearing your continuing experiences with the Ar-24.
About 1911s... I love them as well, and own two-- both Springfields. I have never owned a Kimber, but have looked at a few. The design of the 1911 is so brilliant in it's simplicity. With that, you may be wondering why I switched to the CZ 75 platform. Mainly, I wanted a 9mm handgun since .45 prices were going through the roof. I wasn't reloading then. I was looking for a HighPower and was talked into giving the CZ a try by my 1911/HighPower smith. As much work as he performs on HighPowers, he seemed to thing that the CZ was a better weapon. I bought one and was in love. I've since abandoned my 1911s for carry also. I will bet my life on my CZ any time and that I couldn't say about my 1911s. 98–99% reliability STILL isn't 100%, after all. I'm certainly not implying that a 1911 can't be 100% reliable-- many are. I'm just saying that mine weren't; and I didn't want to have to take the time and expense to make them so. There's something to be said about a gun that comes out of the box that you don't immediately want to customize. The CZ was this for me-- a tool that just works. Plus, I feel more comfortable knowing that I have twice the number of rounds in the magazine for the times when my fine motor skills may fail me in a crisis situation.
I look forward to hearing your continuing experiences with the Ar-24.
6/28/2007 1:52:54 PM
What can I say, but that you are right. There is a feeling you get when you hold the CZ or CZ design that is unlike most others. They point well, and I can understand the attraction. I still like 'em too. I've owned a High Power also. I like this design. I sold the one that I owned due to a trigger, which refused to break properly. I'm sure I didn't send it to the right gunsmith, as others have reported acceptable triggers. The CZ has better ergonomics to me than the HP.
I'm going back to the range Saturday. I'll take 300 rounds or so, including some hollow points, if I can find some for a price affordable to me. I also hope to take the rubber or plastic grips being sent by Armalite. They haven't arrived yet, but I have hopes they will be here before Saturday.
Still dry-firing,
Dobe
I'm going back to the range Saturday. I'll take 300 rounds or so, including some hollow points, if I can find some for a price affordable to me. I also hope to take the rubber or plastic grips being sent by Armalite. They haven't arrived yet, but I have hopes they will be here before Saturday.
Still dry-firing,
Dobe
6/30/2007 8:21:24 PM
June 30, 2007 Saturday
I picked up another 300 rounds, and went back to A.T.P. indoor range. Upon firing my first shot, the trigger rebound spring broke. I don't think anyone would be surprised. Lately, I've been a break looking for a spring. I believe in dry firing even if it means damaging a firearm. This may bother some, but what I learn from dry firing can't be learned at a range. Therefore to me, it is worth it. A broken trigger rebound spring is minor, and can be repaired easily. But what is interesting is that the firing pin stop is still in great shape. I had hoped this would be the case.
So there I was with 299 rounds left and a damaged handgun. What does an obsessive individual do? I reset the trigger 299 times. This became my slow fire day, and I actually shot tigher groups than I have shot previously with this handgun. My groups were half what they were in my original range report shown on my first post. In part the increased accuracy is due to my familiarization with the AR-24 and from all of the dry firing. This is one reason I am an advocate of dry-firing.
I am finding an additional problem with the magazines. I believe the magazines may be undersprung. This is a problem with many of the CZ's. Sometimes on the last round, the brass ejects very close; sometimes the brass even hits me. This happend no less that five times today, and always on the last shot of a magazine. I don't see how this could be an extractor problem, because any ejection where there are additional rounds in the magazine results in a proper ejection.
I left my AR-24 at A.T.P. in the hands of their gunsmith. He said he would send it off to Armalite. It should still be under warranty, but as I told the gunsmith, I did put it through a lot with the dry-firing thing. If Armalite wants to charge me for the repair, it would be only fair. If I can get it sent to Georgia, I will have it there when I arrive. Wish me luck.
I now have over 2000 rounds through my Ar-24 without a malfunction. I'm happy with it.
Today's round count: 300
Total round count: 2,049
I picked up another 300 rounds, and went back to A.T.P. indoor range. Upon firing my first shot, the trigger rebound spring broke. I don't think anyone would be surprised. Lately, I've been a break looking for a spring. I believe in dry firing even if it means damaging a firearm. This may bother some, but what I learn from dry firing can't be learned at a range. Therefore to me, it is worth it. A broken trigger rebound spring is minor, and can be repaired easily. But what is interesting is that the firing pin stop is still in great shape. I had hoped this would be the case.
So there I was with 299 rounds left and a damaged handgun. What does an obsessive individual do? I reset the trigger 299 times. This became my slow fire day, and I actually shot tigher groups than I have shot previously with this handgun. My groups were half what they were in my original range report shown on my first post. In part the increased accuracy is due to my familiarization with the AR-24 and from all of the dry firing. This is one reason I am an advocate of dry-firing.
I am finding an additional problem with the magazines. I believe the magazines may be undersprung. This is a problem with many of the CZ's. Sometimes on the last round, the brass ejects very close; sometimes the brass even hits me. This happend no less that five times today, and always on the last shot of a magazine. I don't see how this could be an extractor problem, because any ejection where there are additional rounds in the magazine results in a proper ejection.
I left my AR-24 at A.T.P. in the hands of their gunsmith. He said he would send it off to Armalite. It should still be under warranty, but as I told the gunsmith, I did put it through a lot with the dry-firing thing. If Armalite wants to charge me for the repair, it would be only fair. If I can get it sent to Georgia, I will have it there when I arrive. Wish me luck.
I now have over 2000 rounds through my Ar-24 without a malfunction. I'm happy with it.
Today's round count: 300
Total round count: 2,049
7/2/2007 12:12:52 AM
Well, this is a bit beyond normal useage covered by warranty, especially the large amount of dry firing.
Nonetheless, this is an interesting experiment and we'll either replace the spring here or send one out to you.
As to the last round issue, we don't think it's a spring issue. The last round normally ejects differently than the previous ones because the following round actually helps guide the ejecting round out of the pistol. No next round, no help.
In some cases this can leave the final round on top of the mag, but it falls out as the mag is removed. You can't get another mag in place fast enough to stop it.
We'll get your pistol back in operation and look forward to your testing. Simply send the pistol in to ArmaLite attention John Kestel.
Thanks.
Nonetheless, this is an interesting experiment and we'll either replace the spring here or send one out to you.
As to the last round issue, we don't think it's a spring issue. The last round normally ejects differently than the previous ones because the following round actually helps guide the ejecting round out of the pistol. No next round, no help.
In some cases this can leave the final round on top of the mag, but it falls out as the mag is removed. You can't get another mag in place fast enough to stop it.
We'll get your pistol back in operation and look forward to your testing. Simply send the pistol in to ArmaLite attention John Kestel.
Thanks.
7/2/2007 7:23:15 AM
Thanks,
I'll call the gunsmith and give him your instructions. I have no problems with paying for the repair of the rebound spring. You may be right about the magazines. In the meantime, I'll order a wolf spring for the magazine, assuming they have one that will fit the new AR-24 magazine, and I'll give it a try. If that works, we know it is the spring. If not, then perhaps the follower. I never received the grips.
When I get my AR-24 back, I'll put some hollow points through it.
I'll call the gunsmith and give him your instructions. I have no problems with paying for the repair of the rebound spring. You may be right about the magazines. In the meantime, I'll order a wolf spring for the magazine, assuming they have one that will fit the new AR-24 magazine, and I'll give it a try. If that works, we know it is the spring. If not, then perhaps the follower. I never received the grips.
When I get my AR-24 back, I'll put some hollow points through it.
7/2/2007 12:59:12 PM
Wow, this really is good info. Thanks for the diligence, Dobe!
I have nowhere near the round count through mine that you have. I have too many guns, and end up taking whatever catches my fancy to the range. I've been working with revolvers lately.
I've noticed a similar issue with my AR-24 ejecting the last round; it often hangs up in the ejection port, sitting on top of the follower. Not jammed, just not ejected. I never gave it much thought, as my next action is to change mags, which causes the unejected empty to fall out.
It's good to know the FP stop is so strong. :)
-- Sam
I have nowhere near the round count through mine that you have. I have too many guns, and end up taking whatever catches my fancy to the range. I've been working with revolvers lately.
I've noticed a similar issue with my AR-24 ejecting the last round; it often hangs up in the ejection port, sitting on top of the follower. Not jammed, just not ejected. I never gave it much thought, as my next action is to change mags, which causes the unejected empty to fall out.
It's good to know the FP stop is so strong. :)
-- Sam
7/2/2007 6:13:42 PM
Armalite,
I have referenced your name on the package going back to the factory.
Sam,
It did hold up well, didn't it. Usually, I have broken rebound springs on handguns with a spring that opens or closes for tension rather than compresses. As a revolver person, I am sure you are familiar with S&W revolvers. Most if not all S&W revolvers will compress the complete rebound spring in order to put tension on it. I have dry fired my Mod 19's over 100,000 times without breaking the spring (not in one session obviously). The timing may go and somethimes does, but the spring holds up. Yet, I have broken two rebound springs on a Ruger Security Six. The difference of course is the way the rebound spring works. The rebound spring on the Security Six was set up the same as it is on the AR-24 and many other handguns. The coils of the spring actually open or close under tension. It is the actual ends of the spring that do the "springing", instead of the entire spring. This seems to put more stress on the first and last coil, instead of distrubuting the load. Note that the Red Hawk's and GP100's rebound is different from that of the Security Six. Many auto's are set up the the same way as the AR-24. It isn't really a problem unless you do a lot of dry-firing, or maybe a lot of fast shooting.
I have referenced your name on the package going back to the factory.
Sam,
It did hold up well, didn't it. Usually, I have broken rebound springs on handguns with a spring that opens or closes for tension rather than compresses. As a revolver person, I am sure you are familiar with S&W revolvers. Most if not all S&W revolvers will compress the complete rebound spring in order to put tension on it. I have dry fired my Mod 19's over 100,000 times without breaking the spring (not in one session obviously). The timing may go and somethimes does, but the spring holds up. Yet, I have broken two rebound springs on a Ruger Security Six. The difference of course is the way the rebound spring works. The rebound spring on the Security Six was set up the same as it is on the AR-24 and many other handguns. The coils of the spring actually open or close under tension. It is the actual ends of the spring that do the "springing", instead of the entire spring. This seems to put more stress on the first and last coil, instead of distrubuting the load. Note that the Red Hawk's and GP100's rebound is different from that of the Security Six. Many auto's are set up the the same way as the AR-24. It isn't really a problem unless you do a lot of dry-firing, or maybe a lot of fast shooting.
7/7/2007 3:13:44 PM
This will be the first weekend since I have had the AR-24 that I haven't been able to take it shooting. It may be a few more weeks before Armalite repairs it, and gets it back to me.
I guess I'll stock up on 9mm.
Dobe
I guess I'll stock up on 9mm.
Dobe
7/9/2007 11:45:57 PM
Hi Dobe:
You may have a point about the springs.
How many times do you figure you dry fired that pistol?
You may have a point about the springs.
How many times do you figure you dry fired that pistol?
7/11/2007 1:52:38 PM
My guess, simply based upon dry fires per minute, would be between 12 -15K. There were times when I was clicking fast. The speed at which one operates the trigger has a lot to do with how fast the spring breaks. Heat and friction tend to go together.
Dobe
Dobe
7/19/2007 4:26:43 PM
| Originally Posted By Dobe: My guess, simply based upon dry fires per minute, would be between 12 -15K. There were times when I was clicking fast. The speed at which one operates the trigger has a lot to do with how fast the spring breaks. Heat and friction tend to go together. Dobe |
The CZ-75 is not intended to be shot all that much in DA mode. The much longer DA trigger pull that you are using when dry firing is what is wearing the trigger return spring out. In a single action pull the travel is far less to release the hammer.
If you leave the CZ or its clones cocked and locked and carry and shoot them in condition 1 as they were intended, I bet you would NEVER break a trigger return spring.
I personally almost never use the DA function on my CZs or clones. If the trigger return spring can withstand 12k DA trigger cycles, that means that for a user who is using the pistol as intended, the return spring would last many many lifetimes. The CZ I shoot the most is my CZ-75 SA and I guarantee you it will absolutely NEVER break its return spring because the trigger has been adjusted to have only 1 or 2 millimeters of total travel.
7/19/2007 6:21:38 PM
Few if any of my dry-firings were from DA mode. Almost all were from cocking the hammer, and then firing. See above post in my response to Yosimite Sam in reference to worn out trigger finger and thumb.
What breaks a rebound spring is the constant, fast, continuous motion. The spring can't cool down fast enough.
Dobe
What breaks a rebound spring is the constant, fast, continuous motion. The spring can't cool down fast enough.
Dobe
7/20/2007 9:57:00 AM
| Originally Posted By Dobe: Few if any of my dry-firings were from DA mode. Almost all were from cocking the hammer, and then firing. See above post in my response to Yosimite Sam in reference to worn out trigger finger and thumb. What breaks a rebound spring is the constant, fast, continuous motion. The spring can't cool down fast enough. Dobe |
Right, but unless you are cocking the pistol by holding the trigger down and racking the slide, the trigger spring is still going through its full range of motion every time you cock and fire it. If you fire the pistol, and manually cock the hammer back, the trigger has to reset back to DA mode in order to do so. Cocking the hammer manually after that does not reduce the length of travel that the trigger return spring has to go through.
What kills the spring is fatigue, which is a direct result of the total number of cycles and the distance the spring travels per cycle. The temperature you are getting it to isn't going to hurt it. You'd have to get it to a few hundred degrees before it it going to reduce its lifespan significantly.
7/20/2007 10:19:10 AM
| Right, but unless you are cocking the pistol by holding the trigger down and racking the slide, the trigger spring is still going through its full range of motion every time you cock and fire it. If you fire the pistol, and manually cock the hammer back, the trigger has to reset back to DA mode in order to do so. Cocking the hammer manually after that does not reduce the length of travel that the trigger return spring has to go through. |
I think you are on to something here. It makes sense.
| What kills the spring is fatigue, which is a direct result of the total number of cycles and the distance the spring travels per cycle. The temperature you are getting it to isn't going to hurt it. You'd have to get it to a few hundred degrees before it it going to reduce its lifespan significantly. |
I will respectfully disagree with this. Spring fatigue is a funtion of friction, which is a function of heat. In other words, there is a life expectancy of rebound spring "X" operaterating at "Y" contractions per minute. That life expectancy is shortened if Y/mins is increased. It is for the same reason that you can take a metal clothes hanger and bend it perhaps 35-50 times slowly before it breaks. Yet if you increase the speed at which you make those bends, the clothes hanger will break quicker.
What makes these types of springs more fragile is that they compress mostly the first and last coils of the spring, not spreading the stress thoughout the coil. Without exception, every rebound spring I have broken has been of this type, and has broken on the first or last coil.
Dobe
7/20/2007 10:55:26 AM
| Originally Posted By Dobe: I will respectfully disagree with this. Spring fatigue is a funtion of friction, which is a function of heat. In other words, there is a life expectancy of rebound spring "X" operaterating at "Y" contractions per minute. That life expectancy is shortened if Y/sec is increased. It is for the same reason that you can take a metal clothes hanger and bend it perhaps 35-50 times slowly before it breaks. Yet if you increase the speed at which you make those bends, the clothes hanger will break quicker. |
The difference between the coat hanger example and a spring is the coat hanger is a ductile material being deformed far past its elastic deformation limit which produces a huge amount of heat and work hardening, while a spring is a non ductile material and is operating within its elastic range (when properly designed of course)
While I will agree that elevated temperature can play a role in reducing the lifespan of a spring, it is usually a very small role and factors like poor surface finish and corrosion are a much bigger factor. Springs are actually stress relieved at a couple hundred degrees after they are made to reduce internal stresses, and the rated operating temperature for most spring material is at least 250 degrees F. As long as you are below 250 deg, you are not hurting the spring at all UNLESS the spring is in a corrosive environment where the elevated temperature might accelerate surface pitting, which is bad.
I did not design the trigger return spring used in CZs and their clones, but if I had to guess, when it was designed it wasn't expected to be used in DA mode much.
FWIW my background is mechanical engineering and we play with a lot of springs. The calculations required to design a spring correctly for an application are actually quite complex and doing them by hand is a severe pain in the ass!
7/20/2007 1:58:09 PM
My friend,
I bow to your expertise. Thanks for the lesson.
Dobe
I bow to your expertise. Thanks for the lesson.
Dobe
7/20/2007 3:19:27 PM
| Originally Posted By Dobe: My friend, I bow to your expertise. Thanks for the lesson. Dobe |
Hey no problem, I love this stuff.
I am impressed with your test by the way, thanks a lot for doing it. 10,000 double action cycles for the return spring is a pretty impressive number all things considered. I bet most CZ-75 return springs wouldn't make it that far. If I had to put money on it, I would say that Sarsilmaz probably uses higher quality springs than CZ. The AR-24 is definitely a high quality gun.
7/20/2007 3:26:52 PM
| The AR-24 is definitely a high quality gun. |
I think you're right. As soon as I get my AR back, I'll put some hollow points through it. I guess that should just about conclude the test, unless I put my Dillion back together. I'm in the process of moving. If I had my progressive loader set up, we could see just what the AR-24 can really take. I'm betting at least 30-40K without any breakage, with a change in recoil springs every 5 -8 K. Who knows?
Take care,
Dobe
7/25/2007 5:48:58 PM
I got word that my AR-24 is ready to be shipped. I am in Raleigh now, but will be back in Baton Rouge in by the end of the month. I'll be glad to have it again. For those who wish to duplicate this experience, the charge is $54. It was worth it.
Dobe
Dobe
