Newbie questions clay shooting
Newbie questions for a clay-shooting gun
Yesterday I got to try shooting clays for the first time, and I'm hooked.
Question 1
Currently the only shotgun I have is a Mossberg 500 with a 18.5" cylinder barrel and the stock synthetic furniture. My problem is the stock just seems too big. I'm 5'5" tall, and the length of pull just feels too big for my arms.
I'm trying to understand if I'm better off with some sort of adjustable stock system like
this would make sense, or if I'm better off just buying a completely new gun. It looks like most "youth" sized guns only come in 20gauge though.
Question 2
I'm assuming that if I stick with this gun, I'll also be wanting a new barrel at some point. Is there any recommended length / sights / rib / choke combinations that's ideal for shooting flying clay targets?
Does the length / sights / rib / choke make a significant difference for a new shooter?
Question 3
Is there a huge disadvantage to using a pump shotgun instead of a semi or over/under? I'm expecting that occasionally my LEFT HANDED mother is going to end up using this same gun (after all, she's the one who wanted to try trap shooting and convinced me to take her on mother's day), so I'd like to avoid a semi that's going to automatically eject the spent casings, and I can't picture myself spending $2k+ on an over/under gun.
Question 4
What's the normal life expectancy sub-$1000 shotguns? I know AR-15s typically need major part replacements around 15k rounds (barrel, bolt, etc.), but I have no idea how long a typical shotgun will last.
Are there any brands that tend to be more durable than others?
Question 5
I've seen people discuss "sporting clays", "trap", and "skeet". I assume these are all slightly different shotgun disciplines that involve shooting clay targets out of the sky. Is there any good resource I can find out the difference so I know what to expect if I go to a local shotgun club for a round of _____ ?
EDIT:
Question 6
Does barrel porting or huge rubber "recoil pads" actually do much to reduce felt recoil? It seems like every company that sells shotguns advertises that they "Reduces felt recoil by <insert percent here>", but I have no idea if that's just advertising bullshit.
Question 3
Is there a huge disadvantage to using a pump shotgun instead of a semi or over/under? I'm expecting that occasionally my LEFT HANDED mother is going to end up using this same gun (after all, she's the one who wanted to try trap shooting and convinced me to take her on mother's day), so I'd like to avoid a semi that's going to automatically eject the spent casings, and I can't picture myself spending $2k+ on an over/under gun.
I have a pump and a side by side 12 gauge. I prefer the double! With a double you get a choice of 2 chokes; I shoot the looser choke first, for the closer target, and then the tighter choke for the further target.
Originally Posted By Iram:
Newbie questions for a clay-shooting gun
Yesterday I got to try shooting clays for the first time, and I'm hooked.
Question 1
Currently the only shotgun I have is a Mossberg 500 with a 18.5" cylinder barrel and the stock synthetic furniture. My problem is the stock just seems too big. I'm 5'5" tall, and the length of pull just feels too big for my arms.
I'm trying to understand if I'm better off with some sort of adjustable stock system like
this would make sense, or if I'm better off just buying a completely new gun. It looks like most "youth" sized guns only come in 20gauge though.
Buy a dedicated gun, a youth pump will wok just fine, preferably with 24"-28" barrel, forget the adjustable stock, you will still need a barrel. You can get a complete youth model for the cost of the stock and barrel.
Question 2
I'm assuming that if I stick with this gun, I'll also be wanting a new barrel at some point. Is there any recommended length / sights / rib / choke combinations that's ideal for shooting flying clay targets?
Does the length / sights / rib / choke make a significant difference for a new shooter?
You will want a bead, preferably brass, front sight and a vent ribbed barrel. Focus on the target not the sight, you do not want a brightly colored front sight distracting you from the task at hand. I get my mount, then I never look at the barrel again. Start with a Skeet or Improved Cylinder choke and as you get proficient, tighten up on the choke until you are turning little orange targets into clouds of black dust
Question 3
Is there a huge disadvantage to using a pump shotgun instead of a semi or over/under? I'm expecting that occasionally my LEFT HANDED mother is going to end up using this same gun (after all, she's the one who wanted to try trap shooting and convinced me to take her on mother's day), so I'd like to avoid a semi that's going to automatically eject the spent casings, and I can't picture myself spending $2k+ on an over/under gun.
You are having fun, not competing, stick with the pump until you decide you really want a double or auto
Question 4
What's the normal life expectancy sub-$1000 shotguns? I know AR-15s typically need major part replacements around 15k rounds (barrel, bolt, etc.), but I have no idea how long a typical shotgun will last.
Are there any brands that tend to be more durable than others?
If properly maintained they will last a lifetime, the price tag has little to do with value or quality, it is market demand. That doesn't mean every $300 auto is a value, but with careful research and consideration, you can find one that will work for you. I personally have been shooting a Mossberg 930 and a SX3 side by side, but I keep leaning towards the 930 each time out. Any major brand has their issues, but a great gun that comes with crappy customer service isn't really a value, is it?
Question 5
I've seen people discuss "sporting clays", "trap", and "skeet". I assume these are all slightly different shotgun disciplines that involve shooting clay targets out of the sky. Is there any good resource I can find out the difference so I know what to expect if I go to a local shotgun club for a round of _____ ?
Try and see if your club has private manual throwers, it will allow you to work on repetitive motion, getting into the same position each and every time so you will be successful and ultimately have more fun. Skeet is a fast close quarters battle, designed to mimic Grouse hunting in the upper eastern seaboard not a lot of time to think, Trap gives you time, but not much, you are shooting rising targets at good distances requiring a tight choke and good skill, Sporting Clays seems even harder to a novice, but with practice it will prepare you for more realistic scenarios you would see in the field
EDIT:
Question 6
Does barrel porting or huge rubber "recoil pads" actually do much to reduce felt recoil? It seems like every company that sells shotguns advertises that they "Reduces felt recoil by <insert percent here>", but I have no idea if that's just advertising bullshit.
Read this porting article: Why Porting in a Shotgun Application Does Not Work I purposely ordered a non-ported barrel for my 930 waterfowl gun, based on information and conversations with Randy and the fact I don't like the extra noise. The recoil pad needs to be of good quality, but if you are having recoil issues, it is a sign that the shotgun doesn't fit you, what you mentioned in you opening remarks. Companies sell all kinds of cure all's, but none will benefit you as much as a properly fitting shotgun. I know, I have spent the last 4 months working on two of my guns to make them fit me. I shot 3 rounds of Sporting clays Sunday, no bruising, no sore shoulder and shot my personal best scores, 77, 79 and 83 out of 100.I would keep your shotgun for now and just buy a youth stock for it and a 26-28" barrel. As previously stated, forget the ported barrels. If recoil is an issue I would look for a limbsaver recoil pad. Chokes will be another area to consider.
You can shoot clays well with a pump but at some point you may want to go towards an O/U because of the two choke availability. This will be helpful for left handed shooters too because of the safety location. You will want to find a stock that is not canted if your mother is going to use it too. Most O/U cant their stocks just a tad for right handed shooters. This can be adjusted by a gunsmith in most cases though, kind of pain though.
A semi-auto will reduce recoil well because of the action work. I am a lefty and I shoot a right handed 1100 in 3gun and hunt with a right hand Franchi. I never have an issue with shell's flying in my face quickly clearing rows of plate racks, poppers, and clays shooting in any kind of position even with the gun rolled in a side-lying/prone position shells ejecting straight up.
Buy a auto!
Several brands offer micro or youth size stocks. Something with an adjustable LOP would be best.
I prefer pumps for hunting and self defense but with the auto you get reduced recoil and you can concentrate on the birds instead of pumping the gun.
Welcome to a very addicting sport.!
It seems like most "youth" shotguns are 20 gauge instead of 12. Is that significant in terms of pattern size/density, ammo availability, or ammo cost?
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?cid=011&tid=375&fid=020B&cattype=011375
Originally Posted By Iram:
It seems like most "youth" shotguns are 20 gauge instead of 12. Is that significant in terms of pattern size/density, ammo availability, or ammo cost?
I shoot a 20ga SX3 and Silver most days out practicing, but when shooting Sporting Clays in an official setting, tourney, I shoot a 12ga. That said I can bust clays just as well with a 20 as I can with a 12, a 12 is just more forgiving. It is about your pattern's slot, in Skeet for example, it should have great patten density from about 18yds to about 28yds.
I think a 20 is a great start, it will allow you to get comfortable with the game with very little to no recoil. A Weatherby SA-08 can be had for around $425-$450 shipped and gets very good reviews, I bought a youth model for my daughter and it never gave me any issues. She shoots a SX3 compact now and it is a great option, but it is $750+ if you hunt around.
Buy the gun that fits you the closest when you mount it. You want 1 1/2 - 2 1/2 fingers width between your thumb knuckle and nose/glasses with out crawling up on the stock or having your shoulder kicked back from excessive length.
Don't turn this into work, keep it fun. A pump gun will do what you want and allow you to keep more money for shells and targets. If you decide this is a game for you(the initial enthusiasm wanes after a few hot weekend trips) then begin the process of finding a dedicated automatic/Over-Under clays gun. I shoot with guys who shoot a pump and they have no problem with true pairs, in fact they routinely embarrass most guys on our squad.
Originally Posted By mike103:
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?cid=011&tid=375&fid=020B&cattype=011375
The SX3 20 has shims for LOP and drop and cast, same action as the Silver:
Winchester SX3 Compact Walnut Field
Winchester SX3 Compact Field
I shoot my wingmaster better than I do my over under in five stand and sporting clays. You can do a lot with a pump gun in the clays game. Once you use your pump for a while you will figure out what gun you want next.
Originally Posted By Iram:
Question 5
I've seen people discuss "sporting clays", "trap", and "skeet". I assume these are all slightly different shotgun disciplines that involve shooting clay targets out of the sky. Is there any good resource I can find out the difference so I know what to expect if I go to a local shotgun club for a round of _____ ?
A little info about the various clay target games
Cant answer your 1st question.
2- The length of barrel is going to be up to you and how the gun swings and balances for you.
3- I would say no unless you get serious about the sport. The less your thinking about the better off you are. The word of the day is Concentration.
4- Comes down to how serious are you going to take it? Are you going to go out once a month or do you want to join a weekly league and then shoot all the little competitions going on around you during the rest of the month? Occasional shooter an 1100 will hold up, somewhat serious shooter you might look into a 391.
5- www.shotgunworld.com has a ton of great info on everything that is shotgun. Its pretty easy to burn a Saturday afternoon up reading that forum. Other than that youtube has a bunch of videos showing the different sports and how they are played.
6- Don't know anything about barrel porting on a shotgun. There are some good aftermarket recoil pads. I stick with 1 oz. 2 3/4 dram loads and don't really notice the recoil in my pumps or semi autos.
A pump will do fine for trap. Any basic 28" (maybe 26") field gun will be workable for trap. Get one with interchangeable chokes. You might prefer a mid bead on the barrel too, but that can be added inexpensively later. Don't buy a cheap O/U. Don't get that tactical stock for a clays gun. You can likely just buy a new shotgun for the cost of a new stock and barrel.
Looking at mossberg's website, I see that they make 500's in 12ga. with various lengths of pull (13", 13 7/8", 14.5"), and remington makes a compact 870 12ga with a 13" LOP, so you have some options. I have the opposite LOP problem––everything is too short for me (my trap gun is 15.75" LOP). Also, LOP has a lot to do with personal preference.
Maybe also look at used versions of common pumps and auto loaders.
Originally Posted By GunCat:
Originally Posted By Iram:
Question 5
I've seen people discuss "sporting clays", "trap", and "skeet". I assume these are all slightly different shotgun disciplines that involve shooting clay targets out of the sky. Is there any good resource I can find out the difference so I know what to expect if I go to a local shotgun club for a round of _____ ?
A little info about the various clay target games
So it sounds like
Skeet: Two targets that fly across (left->right and right<-left). Every round of skeet should be almost identical.
Trap: One target launched in a relatively random direction from a fixed point in front of you. Other than a slight variation in the direction of the target, every round of trap will be similiar.
Sporting Clays: Like a USPSA match, every round of sporting clays is going to be different.
With barrels and chokes, is the primary purpose to having a longer barrel and choke simply to make sure a clay doesn't fly through a cloud of lead untouched?
Originally Posted By Iram:
With barrels and chokes, is the primary purpose to having a longer barrel and choke simply to make sure a clay doesn't fly through a cloud of lead untouched?
Technically yes, main reason for the longer barrel is sighting plane and the reason for the choke is so that you have pattern density at a given distance, the more open/bigger the choke bore ID the wider and less dense the pattern, the tighter/smaller the choke ID the smaller more dense the pattern. Think of the pattern like a big funnel with the small end stuck in your barrel, an exaggeration, but it basically gives you an idea, the pattern is ever increasing in diameter, and as such "holes" form in between your pellets big enough for a clay or bird to slide thru unscathed. The object is to maintain a small enough and dense enough pattern to prevent the target from escaping, whether it be at 8yds or 30 yds. It now becomes an even bigger challenge, now you have to/want to see the pattern in a 3D concert with the target.
Originally Posted By Iram:
Originally Posted By GunCat:
Originally Posted By Iram:
Question 5
I've seen people discuss "sporting clays", "trap", and "skeet". I assume these are all slightly different shotgun disciplines that involve shooting clay targets out of the sky. Is there any good resource I can find out the difference so I know what to expect if I go to a local shotgun club for a round of _____ ?
A little info about the various clay target games
So it sounds like
Skeet: Two targets that fly across (left->right and right<-left). Every round of skeet should be almost identical.
Trap: One target launched in a relatively random direction from a fixed point in front of you. Other than a slight variation in the direction of the target, every round of trap will be similiar.
Sporting Clays: Like a USPSA match, every round of sporting clays is going to be different.
Yeah, that is a pretty good understanding.
Sporting Clays has also been compared to Golf. Each course you encounter will be different based on the layout, terrain and target setup - but the basic rules are all the same. Courses also periodically change their target setups so what you see this month may be different next month (or next week)
quote]
Originally Posted By Iram:
Originally Posted By GunCat:
Originally Posted By Iram:
Question 5
I've seen people discuss "sporting clays", "trap", and "skeet". I assume these are all slightly different shotgun disciplines that involve shooting clay targets out of the sky. Is there any good resource I can find out the difference so I know what to expect if I go to a local shotgun club for a round of _____ ?
A little info about the various clay target games
So it sounds like
Skeet: Two targets that fly across (left->right and right<-left). Every round of skeet should be almost identical.
Trap: One target launched in a relatively random direction from a fixed point in front of you. Other than a slight variation in the direction of the target, every round of trap will be similar.
Sporting Clays: Like a USPSA match, every round of sporting clays is going to be different.[/quote]
Yes.
Yes.
Yes and no.
The targets on your local sporting clay field will not change week to week.
Every club changes them, some more often than others.
And every club you go to will be different to some extent but after a while you will recognize the targets with slight variation.
Trap and skeet are games of precision. You are trying to hit all the targets.
Which is one of the facets of the game that many complain about.
Some say that trap and skeet are too easy and if you don't shoot 100 you are out. There is some truth to that.
Shooting in the 80's at sporting clays is a very good score. But like all sports there are people shooting in the high 90's now.
Trap is more than the 16 yard game that you see.
If you were shooting registered trap you would be shooting trap doubles (very fun), trap singles 16 yards that you see all the time and handicap trap where according to your skill level you shoot anywhere from 16 yards back to 27 yards (called the fence) very hard.
There is also international bunker trap, very hard, and wobble trap where the trap machine isolates both left and right and high and low. Also very fun.
Registered skeet includes doubles where doubles are shot at all stations except station 8. And 100 targets of each 12 gauge, 20 gauge, 28 gauge and .410 bore.
Many people shoot similar scores in 12, 20 and 28 gauge but the real fun begins with the 410.
I shot skeet for several years with my son but like any sport it became a 9x5 job so I have slowed down and scoot more Sporting and Trap just to mix it up.
Originally Posted By Iram:
With barrels and chokes, is the primary purpose to having a longer barrel and choke simply to make sure a clay doesn't fly through a cloud of lead untouched?
The biggest advantage to a longer barrel is improving the dynamics of the gun swing. A longer/heavier barrel will swing more smoothly and deliberately. It makes it harder to flinch or jerk. For a beginner, it's not going to matter as much. Over time though, most people gravitate towards a longer barrel because it helps with consistency.
Originally Posted By graysonp:
Originally Posted By Iram:
With barrels and chokes, is the primary purpose to having a longer barrel and choke simply to make sure a clay doesn't fly through a cloud of lead untouched?
The biggest advantage to a longer barrel is improving the dynamics of the gun swing. A longer/heavier barrel will swing more smoothly and deliberately. It makes it harder to flinch or jerk. For a beginner, it's not going to matter as much. Over time though, most people gravitate towards a longer barrel because it helps with consistency.
This is very tue.
Years ago skeet was shot with 26" barrels.
Now you see 30" and even 32" barrels.
Originally Posted By mike103:
Originally Posted By graysonp:
Originally Posted By Iram:
With barrels and chokes, is the primary purpose to having a longer barrel and choke simply to make sure a clay doesn't fly through a cloud of lead untouched?
The biggest advantage to a longer barrel is improving the dynamics of the gun swing. A longer/heavier barrel will swing more smoothly and deliberately. It makes it harder to flinch or jerk. For a beginner, it's not going to matter as much. Over time though, most people gravitate towards a longer barrel because it helps with consistency.
This is very tue.
Years ago skeet was shot with 26" barrels.
Now you see 30" and even 32" barrels.
I find it helps with eye dominance issues too. The longer a barrel I use the more my right eye stays dominant. I think that is why I score higher in 5stand/sporting with my 870/1100 with longer barrels. I tend to drop straight away trap targets to the left. with my 28" ou. Well I used to till I traded it on a Sporting 12.
Some of the Mossberg stocks are over 14.5 LOP and, the grip angle makes it a little worse. I put a Speedfeed stock on mine. It's about 14.0 plus it has storage that you can either use or ignore.
