bought 2 mosins - which to sporterize and which to restore? (pic heavy)

So i ordered 2 mosins from budsguns. It said they would only come with bayonet, 1 double ammo pouch, and a sling. They both came with 1 sling, 1 bayonet, 2 double ammo pouches, 1 tool kit and an oil bottle. I was lucky to get one hex reciever. I'm going to describe them and put a few pictures up. I'm just wondering if one has more historic value than the other ( i know they're only both worth the 100 bucks i paid, but i'm assuming the hex reciever is rarer maybe? ) The recievers match the barrell and trigger housing. I'm going to redo the stocks on both, but like the description says, i'm going to sporterize one to use for hunting (i'm an amatuer) and the other i'd like to stay looking original.

1. round reciever
brass hardware on upper handguard
tula marks
1937
no screws in slng mounts






2. hex reciever
black hardware on upper handguard (starting to flake off)
isvchek (spelled wrong)
1931
screws in sling mounts

I personally would not refinish either stock, they are in great shape. If you must 'sporterize" I would suggest a scout mount which replaces the rear sight, and using an ATI composite stock. That way a return to original specifications isn't that hard.
I hunt my milsurps as issued, with the exception of a clamp on scope mount on my K-31.

I am assuming you didn't buy these on a C&R FFL 03?

Why do you want to sporterize these? If you want to hunt, there are lots of inexpensive sporting ready rifles you can get without having to butcher a historic milsurp. For example a Savage 111 in .30-06. You can often find one all ready to go with scope bases and rings if not a scope already mounted for < $300. By the time you get a scope mounted on a milsurp you aren't much below that and every Savage I've shot has been a tack driver. Plenty of others out there you can usually find reasonable... I love my milsurps... just like they come...

They're yours so do what you want, but I'd leave them alone.

Don't do it... You'll end up with less of a hunting rifle for more money...

Better Choice

Now, if you want to put a removable scout mount (or, hell just use irons!) and hunt with one... more power to ya.

- AG

I never understood sportizing Milsurp guns, and even more, coming into the C&R forum to ask what to do or how to do it.

If you must sporterize one, I would suggest the hex receiver. Although I say buy a modern rifle for hunting.

Step away from the Mosin comrade! Do not tapco fuck your rifle!

This^

sporterizeing destroys history and any future value the rifle may or maynot have...

There are enough purpose built hunting rifles out there for reasonable prices.


But at the end of the day, they are your rifles, but you are asking in the wrong section of town

do you need to sport it out to take it hunting? i use my mosin as is for deer hunting.

Neither..... I made a sportster, and it's one of my biggest regrets when it comes to my collection. Original ideal was to make a cheap 300 yard gun..... Boy was I wrong.... I think I have more in to it now then if I had just broke down and bought a Remington 700. Besides you have one with a Hex Reciver and the other is a Tula.... They are not the most common varieties, a Izzy round reciver 1941-44 would not annoy the collectors as much. But if your absolutely going to make one out of those two, use the Izzy. They are a little more common then tula's and ATI mount is a lot easier to install on a Hex receiver.

Refinishing the stock is NOT keeping them original. Doing nothing to them is keeping them original.

OP, if you had a truly rare variation, I would wager you would refinish it anyway right? Refinishing the stock is not as bad as cutting one up, but it still ruins most of any potential value. Not a big deal on the common variants you posted here, but I doubt you can tell what is common and what isn't. Just refrain from refinishing any otherwise original milsurp.

Also, do you REALLY need a scope to hunt deer with? The rifle untouched is probably good enough as is with the stock sights. My recommendation if you think you need a scope to hunt deer: LEARN HOW TO SHOOT WITH IRON SIGHTS It seems half of the people I see with scoped deer rifles only have the scope because they lack any sort of real marksmanship ability. Whether this is or is not you doesn't really matter. Scoping a Mosin like yours will yield and inferior scoped hunting rifle to a Savage or something equivalent, and it will cost about the same. Not really economically worth it. If you were thinking that you wanted to 'personalize' your rifle know this: what you plan on doing to your rifles takes not skill at all and no one will respect you for your efforts. In fact, messing with your rifle will cause people to think less of you.

well then, tell me how you really feel! I guess i want to personalize one. At 100 bucks, i don't see how these could have potential value in the future (and i'm not trying to start an arguement, just explaining how it seems). If these were going to be worth more, would people buy these by the dozen at 100 bucks? The last poster mentioned "personalizing" one, as opposed to sporterize. So how does one "Peronsalize" a mosin in a respected way.

and, isn't the hex reciever the rarer (more in demand) of the two?

this, both of them look pretty nice

honestly if you want to "sporterize" any Mosin, find a 1941, 42, or 43 dated 91/30 sinc ehtose are the most common years and typically have the worst fit and finish due to being built as quickly as possible due to wartime needs

I read the other day, over on Gunboards, that the hex receivers were actually more common than the round receivers.

It that true? Dunno, but I didn't see anyone call him on the statement.

Are the hex more in demand? Yep, it sure seems that way. Plenty of places charge more for the hew models and get it, which supports that they're in higher demand. I personally prefer them, because I like the look and because they are on the older rifles.

Either way, from what I can see, I don't think your hex receiver is particularly more uncommon than your round receiver.

Sporterizing both of them.

Actually, turn the Hex receiver into a SBR.

I'm serious. Unless your rifles have any sort of perculiar history... Rifles are meant to be shot, collected, modified, etc.

Do what you want.


I personally love to see well sporterized Mosins.

I have a A bunch of Finnish Mosin Nagants that I bought in the early 90's for $69 to around $100 a piece, They are all currently $300+ rifles The only thing I've done to them is clean and shoot. Now I know that there are a lot more of the russian varients out there and generally they are $100 rifles but in 20 years I bet they won't still be $100 rifles.

If you want a sporterized mosin, do everyone here and the C&R community a favor and buy one that someone and already done this to and give it a good home.

If you'll do a little research you find that the rifles that were sold in the 50's and 60's are now bringin big money in unaltered shape and the bubba'd rifles from that era are still only worth $200 at the most 50+ years later.

Preserve history don't destroy it.

at the end of the day they are currently yours todo with as you please

Jason

Those two rifles look in great shape, I wouldn't change anything on either of them.

A lot of those big money rifles that sold for next to nothing back in the day weren't imported in nearly the same quantities that M91/30's have been imported in in recent times. M91/30's will probably take longer to increase in value over time. Think of them in the future similar to how the Japanese Arisaka market is today. The more uncommon variations sell for big money (much more than even the TRULY rare Mosins do right now), but the common condition T99 and T38's still only sell for $300 or less. Example: T2 take down rifles sell for $2000 plus, but they are not really THAT uncommon. The difference in between them and the rare and uncommon Mosins in the market is that M91/30s are still being imported in great numbers which causes a great effect on the market for all Mosins. T99 rifles may still be common, but they are almost entirely on the secondary market and the supply is more finite. This means that the common Arisakas have less impact on the prices for the uncommon and rare Arisakas. An example on the Mosin side is the M27rv, which approximately 300 (most of the existing ones ate the time) were imported to the US in the 50's and sold for ~$40. Now they are only worth $1500 and less than 60 are estimated to still exist (thanks bubba), still substantially less than a T2 Arisaka. I predict that once the importation of the more common M91/30's dries up, the values of the more uncommon variations will begin to skyrocket compared to contemporary prices for them (assuming the US economy does tank).

I also believe than one of the reasons for some of the less common and rare milsurps being worth more now is the widespread availability of information we have today. This creates larger demand for the less common items, that previously only the advanced collectors knew about and/or understood.

Also, there ARE rare variations that are showing up int he current M91/30 importations, so it would be a very wise decision for anyone who just MUST bubba their rifle to first check that it is indeed a run of the mill rifle rather than a rare one (such as by posting it on a forum, so thanks for at least ding that OP). Usually the defining feature that make a rifle rare are very subtle to the untrained eye.

tl;dr: common refurb'ed M91/30's (as well as M38's and M44's) will only increase in value slightly in the future like common Arisakas have done, but the uncommon and rare variations of Mosins will increase in value greatly.

You do know there was a day when Lugers - yes the guns that sell for $1000+ now - were dirt cheap, right?

Leave those guns alone. They have a rich history and shouldn't be defaced.

You know you can get a Stevens that will cycle smoother and shoot circles around an M-N for like $200...

just 8years ago Nagants could be had from AIM for 59$... now some places want 110$+...


My brothers first gun was a izzy 1942.. he bought it from AIm for the insane amount of 68$ out the door. (we live within driving distance)


These rifles will only go up.


Sure you can hack yours up...They are in fact yours.. but enough people doing that will just increases the value of my 37 tula MO and my 1931 tula hex/all matching including bayo.

thanks for all the info guys.... I really do appreciate it!

forfreedomwefight,

I agree that the arisaka's havn't jumped in value as much as other rifles have, but I really think that is more in part to ammo availability than rareity. but you forgot about the M1917, M1903 (A3), K98, enfields and many other rifles that were cheap 50 years ago that are now $400 and up for fairly common varients.

While the russian M91/30's that are currently on the market are cheap from a Mil-surp standpoint I stand by my original comment that in 20 years they will Not be $100 rifles unless someone bubba'd them.

To me a bubba'd rifle is worth only the sum of its unaltered parts. I don't care how good of a job they did in the process.

I have one bubba'd rifle a 98K I bought this way as I wanted the action to build a custom rifle on. I paid a $100 bucks for it I removed the barrel, trigger parts Magazine/trigger gaurd assembly and sold them for more that I paid for the original rifle and then proceded to buy the parts that I wanted to install.

The rifle in question is one of my favorites but I know that it has no collector value nor will it ever have any collector value and that it's truely only worth the sum of its parts.

The mosins that the OP has will have collector value in the future as long as they go untouched. I don't care about the numbers imported they will be worth more than they are currently in the future.
.
If you want to modify a milsurp, buy one that some else has already started on vs. screwing up ones that are original.


Jason


edit for spelling

Seriously.

Sporterize the HELL out of them.



There seem to be three schools of "Don't do it".
-You don't need to as other hunting guns are available.
-They are history
-Unaltered, the value will go up.

My counter points.
-Maybe I want to hunt with this one? Maybe James Remington killed my Pa and I don't want his guns? Etc... If I want a 1966 GTO, I don't give a crap if your Civic gets 50mpg.
-The other 50 million Mosin's they're importing are pieces of history too. This one didn't belong to Zaitzev or Kruschev...
-You can buy your guns for whatever reason you wish... But if you want to speculate, then you should REALLY just get an 01FFL.

Does anyone honestly believe that the Red's wouldn't have used Poly stocks or scout scopes, etc if they had been available back then? Look at the Russian now... They put rails and Acogs all over their AK's, despite the constant comments in Ak Discussion about how "AK's only look decent in wood"...

It's not 1941 anymore. Sporterize them!

Why do you have to sporterize it to hunt with it? Why can't you hunt with it as is? If you really need to have a "sporting" rifle, why not just buy a cheap Savage or something? Why destroy something that is never going to be made again? I've never understood the logic in this idiocy.

Simo Hayha is blinded by your rash statements...he is not amused by your desire to hack and slash the Mosin Nagant.
Simo Hayha says an unbubbaed Mosin Nagant served me well, no scope needed.
Simo Hayha says happiness is a jam free magazine, a Tikka, SAKO, or VKT barrel and an Artic Birch stock.

Finnish Mosins FTMFW

Are you serious? Do you know what Mausers and Enfields used to go for? Do you know that they go for now?

Exactly why you shouldn't do it.

To the OP,

I have a feeling that we the members of arfcom that love and appreciate C&R's have kinda gotten away from your original questions. I've also noticed that there are several that either say cut'em up or have done as much on thier own rifles.

While we all have the choice of doing as we please with items that are in our possesion, somethings are best left as original as possible.

i like the Idea of hunting with mil-surps and I have done so on a limited basis, using the rifle as issued, lots of ground hogs have fallen to my mosins.

I respectfully disagree with those that say chop them up, but to a collector a rifle that has been sportered is worth less than what it was sold for befor it was sporterized.

at the end of the day they are yours todo with as you please, but if your intention was to use this rifle for hunting then I believe you would have been money ahead to not have bought the 2 mosins and either purchased a rifle that was already sporterized or add a little more money and bought a more modern rifle that was ready togo.

There are cartridges that are better suited for hunting than the 7.62X54R and are mass produced by the various ammo makers and can be found at the local stores easier.

I feel like this has turned in to a pissing match between the purists and the guys who like to sporter thier rifles. if so I apoligize for my roll but not my opinion or advice.

Jason

Alright, then let's just leave EVERYTHING the way it is... since things should never be improved.




How many these rifles are there? A gagillion?

So you won't even notice one or two with replaced stocks? No?



So I should have left the Points Ignition in my 72 Honda CB alone? Or how about the radio in my 67 Mustang that was the biggest POS ever and even NOS replacements are just at crappy? I should take my digital receiver out, huh?



Listen, I LOVE old things.... but you guys are applying reverence for anything that passes into 50+ years old.... and its silly (in my opinion).


You go on and on about value.... or how "its wrong".... or the guns are history.....


#1. I am NOT going to sit on a crate of guns for a IFFY $200 pay off per gun some 30+ years in the future.

#2. Please find me the Leviticus chapter that discusses modifying Mosins.... Or maybe in the Torah or Koran. I'd even take a Docter Seuss book.

#3. I admit that these guns are fantastic historical pieces..... but he's not cutting up a 1 of 1. Or a gun that belonged to Stalin.... He's sporterizing a 1 of 6,000,000+, there comes a point (and I think most Mosins are WELL past it) that you can dispense with the HISTORY label.

That actually made me laugh.

I have an M39 that I wouldn't dare touch....



But you failed to post a rebuttal to my actual points.








These Mosin's that are being imported ARE NOT HISTORY. If you want a gun to shoot, who cares about VALUE? (You will piss away the value proposition in a daywith good ammo).

Not single raindrop thinks that they're responsible for the flood. Would you care to tell me where all the non-sporterized, reasonably-priced Mausers and Enfields are? Oh, you can't, because so many idiot bubbas hacked them up and turned them into a redneck disaster.

Sporterize them, I did mine. NEWS FLASH(for the haters): Firearms are tools. Make it more effective.

Or you can buy the correct purpose built tool for the job... Just saying.

Anyone can do what they want with their property. I don't agree with the idea of it, but It has absolutely nothing to do with money. I don't have any fantasies about becoming rich off of my Mosin collections (or any other guns in my collection, for that matter). That's not why I buy/collect/shoot them. However, what we're talking about taking a C&R rifle and removing it's C&R status, therefore also removing it's relevance in a forum for curios and relics. Take it somewhere else. I know that really hurts the results of trolling (which is usually the intent of these types of threads), but give it a try. If someone is honestly looking for positive comments and support in these endeavors, there are a million other places to find it, rather than the forum that's dedicated to the very thing they're intending to destroy. Now that I think of it, how could one possibly approach this issue in this manner without expecting a negative response? Oh, that's right. That's the definition of trolling.

thanks to both sides, and see the points. I didn't want to "buy" a "hunting rifle" because i havn't hunted my entire life, and co-workers finally talked me into getting my license next month, and I thought it would be "different" to show up with a wwII rifle in hopes to "show them up" with their fancy high priced guns. Whether or not that will happen, it really makes no difference, i probably won't have the patience to hunt all that often. That being said, I have seen many "bubba hack jobs" and I have seen many very good sporterizations where if someone didn't know what a real mosin looked like, it still looks like a wwii gun.

I don't want to argue with the collectors and the relic lovers, so i'll keep my decision to myselfm (havn't made it up yet), but i love these old guns, and I may buy a few more later in the year just to add to my unaltered collection.

No, Round receivers win in terms of being the most common Soviet M91/30s, the Russians rush for firearms during WW2 ensured that. For Finnish mosins, hex receivers are probably more common seeing as many of theirs were built using captured soviet M91 receivers. I tend to stay on the soviet/East-block side of the mosin line so I can't say for sure. Demand wise Izhevsk Hex receivers and Tula Round receivers seem to be about the same, their prices both tend to stay about 10-20 over the going rate of Izhevsk Round receivers, and they show up about just as often at the local gun shows I attend.

No offense, but none of the points you made hardly made any sense. AK's here are essentially commercial arms. Mosins are part of a different market entirely where originality matters. AK's with rails or not is a matter of preference and there are people who like them and those that don't. Sporterized arms are worth basically nothing. AK's with rails can have their old funiture put back on them. (IOW, a Mosin with ONLY bolt on aftermarket parts is fine so long as you keep the old stuff, but that's not what most people do)

Hunting does not require a scope and half of a stock. Mosins can shoot fine as is. The problem comes from the user who has virtually no skill with shooting and thinks he need a scope. Typically most bubbas also don't get good use out of their arms because they were not meant to be modified like that and make poor replacements for purpose built tools.

Speculation of arms is not really that useful sure, but that's not the root of what people have an issue with. If a bubba wants the most effective tool and to take his dollar furthest, he should sell the rifle for current market prices and buy a commercial sporting arm. The fact is is that buy sporterizing arms bubbas are in effect denying a person in the future from owning a military rifle and replacing it with somthting basically useless. I saw a Nazi marked late production Norwegian Krag the other day. It's stock was cut in half and it was polished and reblued. The argument that 'I will never sell it' is BS. You will die eventually, but half of my collection that wasn't bought from other collectors are guns that people would 'never sell.'

The reds WOULDN'T have used poly and scope if they could have because they DIDN'T when they could. All of these Mosins that are being imported now were refurbished during the Cold War. Granted, a lot of what they did was out of cost, but a polyed and scoped Mosin is a less effective weapon for the intended purpose. How many sporters do you see being used by insurgents? They sure have access to the means to sporterize, but most of them are more intelligent than bubbas. These weapons were built the way they were because it works.

Just because something is common doesn't mean that it isn't a relic of history. Most of these M91/30s are post war refurbs, but most of the sporterized rifles I've seen were actual WW2 relics. Again, bubbas lack the knowledge (and often the mental capacity) to understand the intricacies that makes these rifles valuable and more historical or not.

"It isn't 1941," well your powers of observation must be unparalleled. That is more reason to not mess with them. Once the rifle is gone, another will not replace it and the market will have one less in it for some one to enjoy.

I regularly shoot some of my more valuable Mosins, that doen't make them not collectable. It also has basically nothing to do with their value in the future. I shoot them because I enjoy it. the ammo I use has nothing to do with the value of my collection and everything to do with recreation.

That rebuttal enough?

tl;dr: go troll another board bubbas, you have no leg to stand on in any argument.

"Sporterizing" them doesn't make them more effective, and by the time you do a half-decent job of it, you'll be into it for more than the cost of a Savage that was made for the purposes that you're trying to butcher the Nagant into.

Leave a perfectly serviceable military rifle alone and buy the right tool for the job. Would you buy a pipe wrench and try to bubbafuck it into a screw driver, or would you buy a screw driver the first time?

20 years abo or so, no one could POSSIBLY see how a a No. 1 Mk III rifle could have any serious collector's value.

I have a an SMLE that was sporterized by someone who obviously couldn;t see the value in such a gun.

No one ever does until they are gone.

Sporterizing makes them more friendly for field use, if done right, but reducing length, weight, bulk in certain areas, etc. There is a reason why sportsmen tend to favour certain configurations.

Personally, though, I would only do it with rifles that would need restoration to be worth anything or only came as barreled actions or something like that anyway, or just try to find one that has already been sporterized and work on it from there.

Here is my "bubbafucked" Mosin Nagant as you put it.



Excluding the scope I invested right under 1k in it. My gun smith shot this with it, I haven't gotten a chance to shoot it yet but will be going to the range this next weekend. And that is with white box Winchester, I am working up hand loads too. Sporterizing is worth the money if done right.

For "Excluding the scope I invested right under 1k in it" as you put it you could get a Remington 700 SPS Tactical, drop it in a decent McMillian, Bell&Carlson, or HS Precision stock and thow on a EGW 20 MOA base, shoot the same groups and not destroy a piece of history. Or for the same money you have there you just could have bought a Mosin Nagant Finnish 28-76 for between $700-900 and then added your glass. Just sayin'

Yea and then you can spend a dollar a round on ammunition where as I spend 30 cents. I have mosin nagants I haven't modified. Its a 90 dollar piece of wood and steel, if that is what you consider a collectors piece... have at it . By your logic no one should ever modify anything because they would be destroying history... Its flawed at best.

Also this is America after all. He should be able to do with them as he pleases.

And good sir, your logic is equally flawed on the pricing for WWB 7.62X54R and any other ammo that will approach consistant sub 2MOA groups...10 cents a round for Russian or Bulgarian surplus, sure maybe 3-5 years ago, most now is approaching 17-20 cents a round and it is mil surplus so accuracy is not paramount. I actually recently sold a Rem 700 SPS Tactical and have bought 3 Finnish Mosins and a K-31 from the sale. Maybe we should agree to disagree and enjoy shooting our Mosins, no matter how configured.

I honestly don't know why people get their panties in a wad over modifying the Mosin Nagant of all things.

A rare configuration? Okay. But an average-joe, $89, round receiver, force matched Mosin? No. Just, no.

And stop throwing the history card around. If these had historical significance, they shouldn't be fired at all. You'd be handling them with white, cotton gloves and keeping them in climate-controlled vaults.

Sure, I could spend triple the price on a hunting rifle to hunt. But maybe to some people, that's boring as hell. Why spend big bucks on a special hunting rifle when you can build one yourself, get exactly what you want, and have a goddam feel of accomplishment. All for about the same money.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy milsurp rifles like a MF'er. I have a Mosin that will remain unmodified. But due to the low cost, I'm absolutely buying another one to ABSOLUTELY FRIGGIN BUTCHER (in the eyes of a C&R purist). It will be shortened to 16" barrel, stripped down to a skeletonized, folding stock, and have a scout scope mounted. I'll end up with a sweet little scout rifle for the cost of a Mosin, scope, mount, and some scrap steel. Feel free to point out a similar rifle for under $200!

If the future cost and rarity of the Mosin Nagant rifle was a valid reason, anyone who thought so would be buying them up in droves. Then ENCOURAGING people to sporterize, bubba, and otherwise modify their Mosins to increase the rarity of their own investment.
Since that doesn't seem to be the case, keep your Mosins safely locked away. In a couple decades, they might be worth a few more dollars than you paid.

We'll be over here, having fun, and seeing what kind of modifications, tweaks, rebuilds, and enhancements can be had for the hell of it. If Mosins suddenly double in price, you can do the "I told ya so!" dance, but we still probably won't care all that much.

(This post was edited, therefore ruining it's historical significance within the internet.)

Im over here laughing my ass off at that last part. All excellent point.

Yes I realized I priced it too low at 10 cents a round. I bumped it up to 30 cents a round when I edited it. But the point is still the same. I can train for much cheaper than someone with a 700 can. Plus I get the feeling of having a one of a kind rifle.

I've seen it argued both ways.

I don't have a dog in this one, but if you have the production numbers, that would settle it.

Or you could take it to General Firearms Discussion, which is the more fitting place for it.

Waitaminute!

Did you REALLY mean to say you were going to put a FOLDING stock on one?

I'm going to have to go ahead and ask why any one would want a folding stock on a bolt-action rifle (type aside)? Just ofr my own curiosity,

OK, going to respond to myself on this one.

I found the production numbers:

M91:

Chatellerault ~503.539
Tula ~4,388,242
Izhevsk ~1,486,236
Sestroryetsk ~621,000


Model 1891 Dragoon:

Tula/Izhevsk ~4,331,000


Model 1891 Cossack:

Izhevak ~1,348,000


Model 1907 Carbine:

Izhevsk (first pattern) ~4,400
(second pattern) ~300,000

Total above: ~12,982,417 (all were entirely Hex during their production run)


Model 1891/1930

Tula/Izhevsk ~13,000,000 - 14,000,000

These were build as a mix of hex and round receivers.


At first glance, it seems that round receivers would have the overwhelming numerical advantage. That is until one recalls that a good portion of the "new" Model 1891/1903 production consisted of converted M91s, Dragoons, Cossacks, and perhaps even a few recycled 1907 receivers. The Russians did not differentiate between a new production rifle and and converted older rifle. There were both part of M91/30 production. Now, I haven't seen numbers for how many rifles in total were converted, but we do know that a great many of them were. If ONLY just over of the hex receivers ever produced were converted to Model 1891/1930 configuration, it would result in a nearly 50/50 split between hex and round. That's allowing for ~5,000,000 in combat and other losses.

It's certainly reasonable to say that there is a decent chance that hex receiver 91/30s were produced in larger numbers than their round receiver counterparts.

Unless someone unearths a detailed list of how many round Mosin-Nagant 91/30 receivers were produced, that's as close as we can probably get.

what about M44's , just curious.

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