Can the Tavor be successful here in the U.S.?

I think it's a legitimate question. We've all been wanting it to happen and it looks like dreams do come true, but the question remains. Will it succeed, or will it crash and burn? From my perspective, here's what it will take to be a hit.

1) Price point: This is my biggest worry. I understand it's going to be expensive, but CD has to find a way to keep it reasonable. I know, I know, everyone here will buy 2. The thing is, if this comes in at retarded level pricing (I'm looking at you ACR) its NOT going to sell, period. Obviously a bad thing. I know TONS of guys who want a bullpup, but when the rare FS2000 is sitting on the shelf for $2000 plus next to an AR for sub-$1000, it's hard to drop another $1000 for the 'pup, especially here in AR-centric America.

2) Availability: Get it on the shelves. Pictures on the net are good and fine, but nothing beats handling the thing in person. People at the range absolutely drool over my STG556 once they handle it. They are shocked by the size w/a full size barrel. This ties into #1 as well. If the price tag is ridiculous, they will grab the AR sitting next to it.

3) Advertise it: I'm dumbfounded by gun manufacturers lack of advertising. How are you going to sell it if no one even knows it exists? Get ads out letting the "average" gun buyer know what you've got available. Most owners are fuds and don't even know what a bullpup is, let alone its advantages.

This is just my opinion, of course. Sadly, I believe #1 will be the killer.

None of this is a slight to Mr. Kassner. I know he has gone to hell and back to get this thing done, and for that I salute him.

I would love to hear other takes on this.

Price is the key. I will buy one at 1500.00 in a heartbeat.

Yes, price is the main point. Times are tough, make it so that the average guy can afford one of these rifles.
I just bought a FS2000 only because they have them priced OK now for a bit with the overruns.

I read in the other thread sub $2000. We've all been down that road, though. Then when something finally gets released MSRP is

If the price is over $2000 they will sell a couple thousand of them.. If the price is below $1700 they will sells tens of thousands.

$1500 or less is really the acceptable number to most people for any new carbine, but I know that's unlikely.

I would like to try one out. I have zero bull pup experience - but would consider it at the right price point.

Isn't the reciever cast polymer? That should put it below any AR right there.

I think you are 100% correct, and that's what is worrying me. If you know, or can reasonably guess that you won't sell many beyond a certain price point, why even bother? They are saying below 2k, but honestly I would be shocked if that ended up being accurate.

Does that $1700 include a RDS?

I had read that, not sure how true it is. If that is the case who knows? I've heard molds aren't exactly cheap.

If they already are making parts for these here, then maybe all they need to do is set up an assembly plant in the US. If that is the case, it might prove to be cheaper to make than it would be if they have to set up everything new. Not cheap, but cheaper. So sub $2k might be doable. Unless demand drives up the price.

Molds are expensive, but in the interesting case of the Tavor, the molds are already paid for (well, maybe they have a nice government loan, but the molds exist and the manufacturing cost for IMI/IWI providing Tavors for the military should have the mold cost built into the budget). But the stock mold for the Tavor is probably in the $80,000 range, especially with some of the metal inserts it has.

I agree, at $2000+ it will be a weak seller (it took Steyr 2+ years to move 1850 AUG A3's at that price point), at $1700 you are starting to look favorable, and at $1500 you should have good strong sales. MSAR's outsold Steyr AUG's apprximately 15:1, and it was simply based on price point of $1200-$1300 vs. $2000+

FYI, I am referring to the MSRP I see on a rail top version. The MARS sight goes for $700+ retail IIRC, there is no way you will see a MARS equipped US semi Tavor for under $2000.

Interestingly enough, we all seem to see the same ballpark price ranges for what will make or break it.

Question for you, Sven, since you have business experience: In your opinion, will they hit a reasonable price point, or is it going to be a Bushmaster ACR debacle all over again? I realize you would only be giving an educated guess, but I'm curious as to how you think it will shake out.

Actually, when Gun Test(Consumer Report of gun world) tested MSAR at $1750 against AUG/FN FS2K, MSAR came out on top as "Best Buy."

You need both quality/performance along with lower price point.

http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/22_9/features/Steyr-AUG-vs-MSAR5821-1.html

Semiauto version of Tavor has being around since early 2000.

Not sure if uber expensive military grade Meprolight sight is the way to go, considering the bang-for-buck factor of lower end optics has being going up during last several years, closing the performance gap.

A best buy isn't really a best buy if you have warranty and parts issues which can't be resolved or if your warranty item you sent in never makes it back to you. A longterm test update (such as what car and driver does) would negate their awarding of a best buy to the msar.

That's also the only thing that would make me hesitate about the Tavor. Once they've been around (and stayed around) for 5 years, I think I'd be more comfortable.

Still, I'll be in for one, if only for the fun factor.

They wont be here 5 years at a 2k price point. Mr. K just posted "hopefully" sub 2k, so we'll see.

True. GT's Best Buy rating for MSAR at price point of $1750 came with the implicit assumption that warranty/parts issue would be equal for all 3 manufacturers.

I agree, I'm sure there are PLENTY of civi's that want one..... but if the gun is $3000 (ie...scar, acr) you can count me out.

I know its tough for a small manufacturer to produce a large quantity of rifles, but over pricing the small amount of rifles on the shelves means most buyers will buy something else. Like the the other AUG imitation company (came out around the same time as MSAR, and then quickly went out of ).

Another big hump is making sure the US Tavor is still high quality and RELIABLE. Too many times a civi version of a military gun is too quickly "thrown out" on the sales floor, and the quality control isn't there.

Its a tough market for a new gun/firearms company in the US!!!
Tons of good guns already out
Lots of options
AR/AK low prices for carbines/Mil/LE weapons

The key to any new gun in my opinion, is price and mags. Any new bullpup needs to take AR mags... The Tavor does... Price is something we don't know.

Price will also be dependent on much dealers tack onto it. Know they have to make a living and they are in business but have seen a lot of over markup for the past few years especially as people use "the ban is coming" scare tactics.

Honestly, without knowing what the business agreement is, I can't answer that question; only Michael Kassnar, TWA, and IWI can really answer that. Based on previous work he has done he seems pretty in tune with the firearms market which is a definite plus for us. I know what I would need to bring them in at and at what volume to get a price point on it that I thought the market would see as a "hell yes, need to buy it now" price, but a big part of the equation would be marketing it so more than just some rabid bullpup lovers wanted it.

There are a huge amount of factors in play with this one: we have all seen how there have been at least two attempts to bring the Tavor in before, and the price point that IMI was asking was too high to make it feasible in the U.S. market. That being said, from what I know Mr. Kassnar has had a good, long term relationship with a lot of the Isreali arms companies (barring what happened with BUL and the pistols they were making for CDI), and it is possible that IWI is a bit more friendly, or at least a bit more realistic after a try or two as to what the U.S. market will bear on the Tavor. The sales of the Tavor in Canada may also help them realize it is not just niche civilian market.

I think the greater acceptance of bullpups helps too, along with the clear interest in the Tavor (a 79 page thread says a lot about its sales potential) makes it more attractive to make it happen. Greater interest means greater potential sales, which also means you can get volumes that (hopefully) will help bring the price down.

I know that really doesn't answer your question, but just some points to think about in the big picture of "what will it cost"

Bullpup 5.56 rifles are a niche market. Steyr knows this.

While bullpups have a coolness factor and some advantages because of their compactness ARs rule and dominate the market & aftermarket.

I don't much care how much below $2k the Tavor comes in. I only have to buy it once. I've been hemming and hawwing about getting a bullpup for years. First the AUG ("I'll get one when the price comes down a bit."), then the FS2K ("Too bulky."), then the MSAR ("Company seems to be in trouble."), then the Tavor ("Not availab....wait a second!).

I'm buying the damn Tavor. Screw it. First, last and only bullpup. And a fuckload of parts, just in case.

I would gladly take a Tavor for a little while and promote it at rifle competitions and 3-gun.

It will have to be sub $1500.

It will have to be available. Waiting lists are fun, for a little while. But, finger fu[s] handling the gun in a store is what helps me decide. I drove 2+ hours one way to fondle an FS2000 before taking the plunge.

Yep, street price after distributor markup needs to be $1500 for the base model, and $2000 max for the "IDF model" that comes with a Meprolight M21.

Otherwise, they'll satisfy the initial demand for collectors, or just rich guys that would pay any price. Then after that the venture will fail. If they want to charge $2000 for the base rifle, and $2500 for the IDF optic version for the first six months to a year to milk those guys for what they can get first, then drop them down to a sane price... I could live with that. And would just pick one up in the next year or two.

I guess that model worked for BMs ACR...

there's no way this rifle will be released under 2 grand. They will sell a bunch at ANY price. Like you said, they will eventually come down on the price when sales drop off.

I strongly disagree. You have to remember the IMMENSE hype the ACR had, and it's widely considered to be a flop.

The Tavor, outside of this SMALL section of arfcom, has how much hype? Go ask your typical guy at the gunshop and he'll tell you a bullpup is a dog breed.

Not enough folks know about, or want, a Tavor to sustain it at 2k. No way. Early adopters and collecters.

After that, what?

$2K is a big NO GO for me & most other folks. Heck, even $1,500 will buy you one heck of a lot of AR-15 goodness, so it will be tough to sell at that price.

I hope they do not blow this one with unrealistic pricing.

The price really has to be under $1500. Otherwise it'll collect dust with the FS2000. I know a couple shops that have had the same FS2000 on the shelf for well over a year, because no one wants to pay that much. It's hard to sell when you've got ARs on the rack for ~$700.

I know some will disagree, and I may catch some flack, but I think it is very likely.

Successful as the FN FS2000!!!

Tony

The fs2000 has sold thousands and thousands of units here according to FNH, but that's because the price dropped from:

$2999 to
$2799 to
$2499 to
$2199 to
$1899 and can now be had at $1500-1600

I have had a couple and now have one, but would not pay over $1600 for one

2k is my drop dead point, any more and I'll wait it out..

FS2000s also look like bulky space ships. They are ugly as shit

The Tavor is a sexy beast.

I'll join the consensus and say $1500 is my limit. I spent $2000 each on my FS2000 and AXR; while I'm glad to have them, my derived utility these days for a third .223 bullpup isn't high enough to justify more than $1500.

While the Tavor has the military pedigree like the SCAR, it also lacks the "modularity" of the SCAR and ACR. Some of their "premium" (read: ridiculuous) cost is due to the modularity of those weapon systems. Despite that never being realized successfully, you could at least justify it partially by believing you were buying a "system". The Tavor isn't a system. You get whatever barrel length it comes with, and your choice of optic.

Unfortunately, I don't see $1500 as realistic, given the launch prices of the ACR, the SCAR, the various .308 rifles. They'll see the opportunity and take it. I fully expect it to be $3000+ when it comes out, in extremely limited numbers. High-end collectors will buy them, but then it'll falter and fail because not everyone is in the position to spend that kind of cash. The price probably won't drop much since IWI will be involved and they are pretty proud of their creations. IWI will then point the finger at Kassnar and pull the plug saying it will never be successful due to slow/non-existent sales.

I already have two very nice and reliable bullpups that do the same thing, and a ton other .223 conventional carbines and rifles that do the same thing for even less. I'm sure they'll sell some if it comes above $1500 or even $2000, but it'll be a short-lived operation. I wish them the best whatever the price point is, but I know what my limit is. I'll just live vicariously through others' experiences when they buy them.

This kind of reminds me of the ACR, SCAR and XCR ....... only one company making the weapon and it's replacement parts.

Speaking of warranty, anyone know what the warranty is? Lifetime?

I would like to ADD one to my collection, but I would not replace my AR with it if for no other reason than the whole one source for parts thing.

But like many here, I think ~ $1500 / $1600 without an optic would be my limit on this.

I have no love for bullpups in general (dunno, maybe if I spent more time shooting them), but if priced right, I can't see why a tavor wouldn't sell. I probably wouldn't get one, but different strokes and all that....

That is what is known as "normal" in the gun and manufacturing industry.

Having ten different companies make the same weapon, i.e. Ar-15 is very much the exception to how things are done.

Very few gun companies operating today manufacture the majority of their own parts in house.

Good point, that's one reason I choose an AR as my primary.

Another good point, one reason I own a DD.

I'm saying I like what I see as far as the Tavor, if they can be found new in box for 1500 or 1600 dollars sans optic I will probably buy one.

For me YES, I plan to buy a Tavor and an AUG. Its only money.

JCS

Would be definately interested at sub $2K, even at $1800, like teh first MSAR's and the TPD. What keeps me wary is availibility of spare parts. Thats what stopped me from buying a MSAR, and it'll stop me from a tavor until i feel I can acquire parts.

How much do they cost in Canada?

Around $2800 USD.

Given that, I don't see it under $2000 on the US market. Sorry folks....

Honestly I just don't think it is possible to bring a proprietary niche rifle to market at the price point you folks want. Atleast not without major corner cutting. If it comes in that low, I would be worried about what is being cut in order to bring it to the US market.

That's true. And if it comes in too high, it won't be around long.

Oh, well. Guess I'll shoot it till it breaks.

I think that a $2800 CAN will not translate to a $2800 USD. Yes, the dollars are about even, but maybe its the taxes, or whatnot, but looking at some Can. distributor? sites, they charge a hell of a lot more than what we get rifles for down here. $1300 for a RRA A4, $700 for a G17, $770 for a M&P9, etc. THe drawback is, that on that scale, looks like it'll end up around $2100

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