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Dual lock on a safe.
3/18/2012 7:42:19 PM
Just got back from a Sportsmans expo. Looked at lots of safes. I saw that Ft Knox has a safe that you can open with a digital lock or mechanical. I really like this option. Anyone have any bad experiences with this setup?
Thanks,
Thanks,
3/18/2012 9:01:19 PM
I believe they are using the LaGard redundant lock. It has been around for awhile, and can be used on any other safe using a standard footprint lock.
3/18/2012 10:38:41 PM
Do any other safe manufacturers offer this? Funny I thought I was going to get a sierra summit. then I thought Liberty and then ft knox. I always like ft knox but did not like the pricing. ft knox had very good show pricing and I think I like the design the best. I like external hinges and the dual lock.
Man safe buying is like buying a car. Way to much dickering over price. Of course I could just pay msrp.
Man safe buying is like buying a car. Way to much dickering over price. Of course I could just pay msrp.
3/18/2012 11:46:55 PM
Very interesting lock system! I may have to look into this a little more.
3/19/2012 12:08:39 PM
Sturdy safe does dual locks as well
3/19/2012 8:25:27 PM
The dual lock option on the Sturdy engages the bolts at a second interface. It's an entirely redundant system, unlike a dual elec/mech lock that seats into a standard footprint.
3/19/2012 9:11:23 PM
Originally Posted By L_JE:
The dual lock option on the Sturdy engages the bolts at a second interface. It's an entirely redundant system, unlike a dual elec/mech lock that seats into a standard footprint.
The dual lock option on the Sturdy engages the bolts at a second interface. It's an entirely redundant system, unlike a dual elec/mech lock that seats into a standard footprint.
Excuse my ignorance, can you elaborate a little on this system and what it offers in terms of real world benefits for the average RSC. Any comments would be appreciated.
3/19/2012 9:37:33 PM
Excuse my ignorance, can you elaborate a little on this system and what it offers in terms of real world benefits for the average RSC. Any comments would be appreciated.
I have not seen a Sturdy with dual locks, but I am assuming they are using something similar to what vault doors have used for eons.
The LaGard redundant lock is a single lock with two functions. Either the dial or the keypad will operate the single lock. Vault doors have used dual locks for years. In some cases it is for dual custody, but more importantly, it's used as a redundant method of opening the door in the event of a lock failure. Either individual lock will open the door, or it can also be set so that both locks are required to open the door.
As far as gun safes go, National Security used to offer dual locks as an option on their safes back in the 90's. It's not really anything new, you just don't see it very often.
3/19/2012 10:56:48 PM
Originally Posted By BGENE:
Excuse my ignorance, can you elaborate a little on this system and what it offers in terms of real world benefits for the average RSC. Any comments would be appreciated.
Originally Posted By L_JE:
The dual lock option on the Sturdy engages the bolts at a second interface. It's an entirely redundant system, unlike a dual elec/mech lock that seats into a standard footprint.
The dual lock option on the Sturdy engages the bolts at a second interface. It's an entirely redundant system, unlike a dual elec/mech lock that seats into a standard footprint.
Excuse my ignorance, can you elaborate a little on this system and what it offers in terms of real world benefits for the average RSC. Any comments would be appreciated.
I'm guessing here, but I'd say the primary lock engages into a cross bolt or some sort of camming mechanism that's connected into this bolt. Lock number two probably engages directly into the next cross bolt that's located above the primary lock. In order to retract the bolts, you'd have to punch both locks.
The down side is that if either one of the two locks fails in the locked position, you're shut out. I would not go this route with an electronic lock[s]. You're doubling the probability of failure; its not a meaningful issue with mechanical locks, but I wouldn't sleep well with this set up using standard electronic lock[s]. Sturdy uses pretty straight forward designs, so I don't think this second lock would add any unnecessary complexity that could contribute to a lock out, if using a mechanical lock.
It's a clever way to really complicate a punching attack. But, it doesn't stop a cutting attack.
3/20/2012 10:25:10 AM
Originally Posted By L_JE:
I'm guessing here, but I'd say the primary lock engages into a cross bolt or some sort of camming mechanism that's connected into this bolt. Lock number two probably engages directly into the next cross bolt that's located above the primary lock. In order to retract the bolts, you'd have to punch both locks.
The down side is that if either one of the two locks fails in the locked position, you're shut out. I would not go this route with an electronic lock[s]. You're doubling the probability of failure; its not a meaningful issue with mechanical locks, but I wouldn't sleep well with this set up using standard electronic lock[s]. Sturdy uses pretty straight forward designs, so I don't think this second lock would add any unnecessary complexity that could contribute to a lock out, if using a mechanical lock.
It's a clever way to really complicate a punching attack. But, it doesn't stop a cutting attack.
Originally Posted By BGENE:
Excuse my ignorance, can you elaborate a little on this system and what it offers in terms of real world benefits for the average RSC. Any comments would be appreciated.
Originally Posted By L_JE:
The dual lock option on the Sturdy engages the bolts at a second interface. It's an entirely redundant system, unlike a dual elec/mech lock that seats into a standard footprint.
The dual lock option on the Sturdy engages the bolts at a second interface. It's an entirely redundant system, unlike a dual elec/mech lock that seats into a standard footprint.
Excuse my ignorance, can you elaborate a little on this system and what it offers in terms of real world benefits for the average RSC. Any comments would be appreciated.
I'm guessing here, but I'd say the primary lock engages into a cross bolt or some sort of camming mechanism that's connected into this bolt. Lock number two probably engages directly into the next cross bolt that's located above the primary lock. In order to retract the bolts, you'd have to punch both locks.
The down side is that if either one of the two locks fails in the locked position, you're shut out. I would not go this route with an electronic lock[s]. You're doubling the probability of failure; its not a meaningful issue with mechanical locks, but I wouldn't sleep well with this set up using standard electronic lock[s]. Sturdy uses pretty straight forward designs, so I don't think this second lock would add any unnecessary complexity that could contribute to a lock out, if using a mechanical lock.
It's a clever way to really complicate a punching attack. But, it doesn't stop a cutting attack.
I guess I should have went to the Sturdy website first,
Two, separate and complete locking systems that provide twice the protection from locksmith entries by hiding drill points. Each dial is designed to lock the engaged deadbolts. The first dial is the original spin dial that comes with the safe (unless you added the Electronic Lock option). The additional dial you are purchasing with this option, is added above the original dial and you have the option of making it an Electronic Lock or spin dial.
It looks like you can get mechanical or electronic option for xtra $245
3/20/2012 10:52:24 PM
Two, separate and complete locking systems that provide twice the protection from locksmith entries by hiding drill points.
Why would you want to make entry by a locksmith more difficult?
3/21/2012 6:29:04 AM
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
Why would you want to make entry by a locksmith more difficult?
Two, separate and complete locking systems that provide twice the protection from locksmith entries by hiding drill points.
Why would you want to make entry by a locksmith more difficult?
I wondered this myself when I read it on their website last month. The more difficult it is for the locksmith the more EXPENSIVE it will be for you!
3/21/2012 8:16:40 PM
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
Why would you want to make entry by a locksmith more difficult?
Two, separate and complete locking systems that provide twice the protection from locksmith entries by hiding drill points.
Why would you want to make entry by a locksmith more difficult?
It's not necessarily a locksmith that I'd be concerned about, but somebody with semi-comparable skills in punching a lock. If you don't have to put Humpty Dumpty back together, I imagine punching the lock is the best way in based on tool bag size/weight, and noise.
It's two hundred extra dollars to help you sleep a little better at night.
Hey, I have a TL-rated safe, and yeah, I'd be interested in in adding a second lock to it.
Odds are that the safe will never see an attack, but odds are that you are still going to worry about it every single day that thing is sitting in your house.
3/21/2012 9:30:57 PM
Originally Posted By L_JE:
It's not necessarily a locksmith that I'd be concerned about, but somebody with semi-comparable skills in punching a lock. If you don't have to put Humpty Dumpty back together, I imagine punching the lock is the best way in based on tool bag size/weight, and noise.
It's two hundred extra dollars to help you sleep a little better at night.
Hey, I have a TL-rated safe, and yeah, I'd be interested in in adding a second lock to it.
Odds are that the safe will never see an attack, but odds are that you are still going to worry about it every single day that thing is sitting in your house.
It's not necessarily a locksmith that I'd be concerned about, but somebody with semi-comparable skills in punching a lock. If you don't have to put Humpty Dumpty back together, I imagine punching the lock is the best way in based on tool bag size/weight, and noise.
It's two hundred extra dollars to help you sleep a little better at night.
Hey, I have a TL-rated safe, and yeah, I'd be interested in in adding a second lock to it.
Odds are that the safe will never see an attack, but odds are that you are still going to worry about it every single day that thing is sitting in your house.
I agree with you L_JE. Sawing through plate steel is very noisy but drilling through doesn't make much noise at all; so I think this option is aimed to defend against the more educated crook who's going to work to get full access to the contents of the safe. To do that, he needs time and so doesn't want to make too much noise and risk a nosy neighbor coming to investigate or calling the cops. A manufacturer is going to provide a legitimate locksmith with drill points and procedures to get into their safes so this option will only add a little more time (that is if a relock didn't trip) for a locksmith to get in and in the case of Sturdy, they will pay the locksmith entry cost anyway (lifetime mechanical, 2 year electronic).
3/21/2012 9:34:28 PM
It's not necessarily a locksmith that I'd be concerned about, but somebody with semi-comparable skills in punching a lock. If you don't have to put Humpty Dumpty back together, I imagine punching the lock is the best way in based on tool bag size/weight, and noise.
Anybody who wants in to one of these can easily cut one in half with tools commonly available at the local hardware store.
In commercial service, dual locks are either used for dual custody, redundancy, or in and out access during business hours. Having two locks will certainly increase the security, but that's not what Sturdy says. I'm actually starting to see a theme:
Two, separate and complete locking systems that provide twice the protection from locksmith entries by hiding drill points.
In addition to the hardplate that comes standard with every Sturdy Safe, we offer a diamond/ carbide bit resistant, machine tool pin hardplate, as hard as ball bearings, to keep locksmiths out.
Maybe there's a rash of locksmiths breaking into gun safes that I don't know about. I always figured if I was going to go to prison for stealing from one of my customers, that I'd hit a bank or a jewelry store. Sturdy seems to think they will be targeting gun safes.
so I think this option is aimed to defend against the more educated crook who's going to work to get full access to the contents of the safe. To do that, he needs time and so doesn't want to make too much noise and risk a nosy neighbor coming to investigate or calling the cops
An educated crook could pop open a Sturdy in a matter of minutes. All of their fancy locksmith stopping features wouldn't even come into play.
3/21/2012 11:00:10 PM
Anybody who wants in to one of these can easily cut one in half with tools commonly available at the local hardware store.
And that is even true for 1" plate steel safe, it's just a matter of time needed.
An educated crook could pop open a Sturdy in a matter of minutes. All of their fancy locksmith stopping features wouldn't even come into play.
I remember when you said you could open a Sturdy safe with nothing more than a pry bar
That still makes me laugh when I think about it.3/22/2012 12:57:50 AM
And that is even true for 1" plate steel safe, it's just a matter of time needed.
There's not much sold at the local hardware store that will cut 1" easily. There are all sorts of tools sold at the hardware store that will slice a Sturdy open easily.
I remember when you said you could open a Sturdy safe with nothing more than a pry bar That still makes me laugh when I think about it.
I suppose you should keep on-a-giggling then, because nothing has changed between then and now, unless Sturdy is using significantly thicker steel in their doors. Of course I also stated that there were plenty of other faster ways, none of which would be affected by all of their "locksmith proof" features.
I have seen plenty of safes pried open, many of which were using thicker steel than the Sturdy.
3/22/2012 6:39:17 AM
There's not much sold at the local hardware store that will cut 1" easily. There are all sorts of tools sold at the hardware store that will slice a Sturdy open easily.
They sell circular saws, diamond tipped carbide blades and cutting oil and all the same stuff the UL testers are using.
I suppose you should keep on-a-giggling then, because nothing has changed between then and now, unless Sturdy is using significantly thicker steel in their doors. Of course I also stated that there were plenty of other faster ways, none of which would be affected by all of their "locksmith proof" features.
I have seen plenty of safes pried open, many of which were using thicker steel than the Sturdy.
I have seen plenty of safes pried open, many of which were using thicker steel than the Sturdy.
You couldn't pry open a Fort Knox safe with a pry bar either and they use thinner steel than Sturdy. 5/16", 7ga or even 10ga is plenty of steel to keep you or anyone else out if you don't have the right tools for the job and a pry bar isn't going to work on these.
3/22/2012 9:22:30 AM
They sell circular saws, diamond tipped carbide blades and cutting oil and all the same stuff the UL testers are using.
Actually, most hardware stores are not selling some of the big tools that UL is using. That aside, you are correct. You can cut 10" plate with a grinder, as well as 7 gauge. However, the 7 gauge will cut much, much faster. I can literally slice through a Sturdy with a circular saw. It doesn't take much longer than cutting through plywood with a circular saw. You will not cut thicker steel in the same fashion.
You couldn't pry open a Fort Knox safe with a pry bar either and they use thinner steel than Sturdy. 5/16", 7ga or even 10ga is plenty of steel to keep you or anyone else out if you don't have the right tools for the job and a pry bar isn't going to work on these.
I don't think you have a very good grasp of what I can and can't do. You do know that I break into safes professionally, don't you? I've never met a safe yet that has kept me out, and even if someday I did, it wouldn't be a gun safe.
3/22/2012 6:36:26 PM
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
I don't think you have a very good grasp of what I can and can't do. You do know that I break into safes professionally, don't you? I've never met a safe yet that has kept me out, and even if someday I did, it wouldn't be a gun safe.
I don't think you have a very good grasp of what I can and can't do. You do know that I break into safes professionally, don't you? I've never met a safe yet that has kept me out, and even if someday I did, it wouldn't be a gun safe.
Oh I know what you can and can't do and you cannot pry open a Sturdy Safe, Fort Knox Safe, Summit Denali Ex and a few other RSCs I can think of with just a pry bar; there is no secret information that you or any other person knows that will make it happen; sorry you're not as good as you think you are ...There are enough owners of these gun safes who have done their research and know the strengths and weaknesses of what they bought and know what you say isn't true. Terry Pratt over at Sturdy Safe designed his safe specifically to resist pry bar and impact attacks and the new dual lock option makes drill attacks more difficult especially to the locksmith/safe techs who haven't spoken with him first.
3/22/2012 11:37:04 PM
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
...cut...
Why would you want to make entry by a locksmith more difficult?
...cut...
Why would you want to make entry by a locksmith more difficult?
And, this is why we can't have nice things.
Sturdy came out with this option at the request of customers. I think a lot of custormers have had safe installers do an install, and in the course of the install, they heard things like, "Meh, I'd just punch the lock, it's not that hard on something like this."
Yes, it's only going to be effective in a small subset of attacks, but it's piece of mind for the customer.
3/22/2012 11:56:46 PM
Oh I know what you can and can't do and you cannot pry open a Sturdy Safe, Fort Knox Safe, Summit Denali Ex and a few other RSCs I can think of with just a pry bar;
I really don't think you do. You can't even repeat what I said correctly, yet you seem to have a firm grasp on my safe opening skills.
Sturdy came out with this option at the request of customers. I think a lot of custormers have had safe installers do an install, and in the course of the install, they heard things like, "Meh, I'd just punch the lock, it's not that hard on something like this."
That may be possible, but most guys who install gun safes aren't usually safe guys themselves. I don't know how many installers would have any idea what it would take to get into a safe. Probably not many.
