-1 for Saigaman2 RESOLVED

In late October/Early November I found the following AD on AR15.com posted by Saigaman2 selling an AKM Underfolder with a BFPU finish.
Upon contacting him regarding the rifle he told me it had sold but he could build be a similar one.

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=7&f=122&t=923508

I requested that the rifle would have a clear coat put over the finish due to the fact that the rifle would be distressed to give it a battlefield pick-up appearance, and Florida is quite humid which may accelerate rusting.
He informed me that there would be no problem clear-coating the rifle.
He quoted me two-three weeks for the build; I sent him the full payment the next day. It was about the second week in November when I sent him the payment.

To summarize the entire situation up to this day, I heard nothing but constant excuses for the constant delays and problems.
Keep in-mind I was quoted 2-3 weeks for the build Mid-November and we’re in the beginning of March now, and I’m empty handed and out $620 dollars.
March 3rd he informed me that the clear was not holding, and that there was a void in the weld over the old detent.
He sent me pictures of the rifle this past friday. The rifle looks like it was polished down to the bare metal. It does not look like a battlefield pick-up rifle. There was very little finish left on the rifle at all. It looked more like a sub-par polish job; it looked very little like the original rifle he listed that sparked my interest.
I informed him that I’ve been more than patient, and due to the situation at hand I requested a full refund.
His response was that he would refund me after he sold the rifle.
We’re nearly five months in; he was not able to produce a product that I paid for. I find no reason why I should have to wait till he sells the rifle to someone else to refund me.
At this point I have very little faith in anything he promises.



Update: Two weeks ago he was telling me if I wanted to be refunded due to the constant problems and delays it was no problem, he'd go out and get the money order. Now when it actually came down to refunding me he's singing a different tune. Now he's claiming that due to the fact that it's a "personalized" rifle I must wait till he sells it for me to receive a refund. My grandfathers name was engraved inside the trigger-guard of the rifle. Fact still remains that he could not provide a product that I paid for, and now he's stonewalling to avoid refunding me. This man can literally not stick to a single word he promises.

Here's a picture of the rifle he sent me for those curious.



Further more an email from Feb 21st -
From Saigaman2 -

"I’m not concerned about shit man.
I’m just telling you, I did not meet your expectations on delivery. I apologize for that. I did not communicate very effectively. I apologize for that.
My rep for building a quality product, standing by it and communicating on the subject are top notch. I’m just pissed now not at you just the situation.
I’ll scrub your Grand Fathers name from the receiver and blast it shoot it and sell it. No problem on my end.
I’ll get the Money out tomorrow.
Again I apologize for the inability to meet the time line I promised, this does come from walking in your shoes, Ident has had my receivers since the first week of January. I will be sending my work to Orion in the future lesson learned.
They lost a customer and I lost one as well.

Sorry Leon."



When the time to actually refund came, he's literally refusing to do so.
He wants me to wait even longer now without any time-frame of when and if he'll ever refund me.

You'll need to send him a link to this. In addition his personal information needs to be removed unless a mod/staff tells you to publish it.

I've already sent him a link to this.
Also there really isn't any personal information on here. It's all basic information found on his website.

remove the personal information.

So you want him to refund you money on a gun you had your name engraved on? Last time I sent a bolt out for engraving was in December and I don't have it back yet. Also Im not sure how this looks much different from the one he built for you. As a matter fact if you told me it was the same gun I wouldn't know any different. So you ordered a custom built gun and cant figure out why it took so long? Or you changed your mind? What exactly is the problem.

Originally Posted By jkoenig1980:
So you want him to refund you money on a gun you had your name engraved on? Last time I sent a bolt out for engraving was in December and I don't have it back yet. Also Im not sure how this looks much different from the one he built for you. http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z408/JBIArmory/CW45066.jpg

You're kidding, right?





Compare that to the picture he sent me.
Day and night.
One has a distressed finish, the other one has nearly no finish left at all.
That's not even the issue at hand.

I'm asking him to refund me cause he wasn't able to produce the product he promised.
The rifle has it's finish chipping, and now have a void in the weld.
After nearly 5 months of waiting.

Regarding the engraving.
He tried blaming a month delay on me, as months prior I requested selector engravings.
I originally requested Cyrillic, he told that would cost me extra as it needed to be sent out, but he can do Romy and Polish. So we agreed on Polish.
I showed him that email, he quickly changed his story and no longer tried to blame for me it.

I'm assuming from your comment you literally read nothing from my original post.
He quoted me 2-3 weeks, we're into nearly 5 months and I still don't have a rifle.
That's my problem.
I gave him numerous chances to make it right, continuously I heard nothing but excuses.

Original Rifle

Current Rifle


I do not see the major difference in the two. I used the picks from one for the other. Even did the swipe on the rear site block from the original that scrubbed the G from the original.

The Original order was for a mixed match parts kit based off of the rifle above.
I did state a 3 week lead time ARO.
I did request the deposit for the parts involved in quoted build 300.00 (customer sent full payment)
From the time the order was placed to 1-5-2012 several changes were requested by the customer.
He requested darker hand guards, I agreed
He requested a polish kit, I agreed and managed a matching numbered kit.
He requested requested selector engraving marks & de-tents, I agreed (7 weeks at the engraver)
He requested after first trip to the engraver a personal engraving, I agreed (8 weeks at the engraver) I removed the BBL - Trigger Guard to accommodate this. (customer did offer to pay for the engraving and I declined payment do to my late delivery)
All of the above at no additional charge . I will provide a copy of emails and the original signed order for review.
I did on 2 different dates (will provide emails) agree to refund payment.
On both occasions he wanted to continue with build.
On the second date he asked for the personal engraving to be completed.
He also stated if I could not complete the clear service then he would accept the rifle in a new finished condition. (I will provide email)
I do believe the customer is do a refund, I also believe very strongly that he has a certain amount of responsibility in this issue. By requesting the personal engraving he in fact took ownership of the receiver in question.
I also would like to point out in my last email I agreed to refund when I sold the rifle.
I would also like to state for the record, I have answered every email, phone call etc in a very timely manner.
I do take responsibility for agreeing to a service (clear coating) on a BFPU when in fact I had not done.
I have tried everything to make this work. It keeps peeling after the range.
I have excellent feedback here and every other board.
To be clear I am not blaming the customer for anything. He made requests and I agreed.

I again state the customer will receive a full refund. when this rifle is moved off my books. I have a returning customer coming to look at it tomorrow.

The finish isn't even the major aspect in this situation.
Though I don't know why you're showing pictures different from what you've sent me.
The clear-coat finish chipping is without a doubt an issue.

My invoice was sent to me on 11/5/11 -
Your payment was sent out roughly two days later.

Regarding the changes, they were all done well before you even started working on the rifle.
I can provide emails as proof.
2-3 weeks past without you starting the build, then requests were made.
That accounts for a month. Not for the other three and a half months.

Again, regarding the engraving as mentioned above -
I specially requested Cyrillic, you informed me that would need to be sent out, but you could do Romy and Polish.
We agreed on Polish months prior.
I can provide that email correspondence as well.

When I asked if you could engrave my grandfathers name into the receiver I assumed it was something you could do in-house as well.
I specially asked if that's something YOU could do. Not an engraver. You informed me it was no problem.
Obviously if there was going to be a month delay due to my request it should have been mentioned.

Despite the fact that you did offer to refund me.
I continued with the build due to the fact that you specifically promised the rifle would indeed ship Monday.
Monday came, I requested tracking to no avail.
No response from you till Friday night, where you informed me that the clear was chipping again and that there was now a void in the weld.
At which point I had enough, and requested a refund.

Yes you offered a refund, Yet you can't state when the check will be in the mail, I do not plan to wait nearly five months for a refund like I did for this rifle.

Regarding the personal engraving, you clearly stated that wasn't a problem, that you would "scrub" it off and sell the rifle.
You clearly stated in your prior email that you would "Get the money out tomorrow" If that's what I wanted.
Except when it actually came down to refunding me you started stonewalling.


Edit: Looking at the new pictures you've added I will retract my prior state regarding the finish. It does look a lot better than the picture you sent me.

There is miscommunication then on my end I apologize.
There was no intention of misleading you and if you feel I did I apologize.
You are not happy and I want to make you hole on your deposit.
I will promptly refund your full amount when this rifle is sold. Even if I need to sell it for less and make up the difference then I will. But I am firm on my position regarding the refund.
I am not trying to hide the fact that there is a void in the weld between the selector markings. I have disclosed this to the customer coming over tomorrow to see it and we have a tentative deal even with the void.
The void is caused by blasting and re parking the rifle to make it correct per our agreement. I am not blaming you. I am stating what caused it.
Jim
Thank you for the retraction the rifle shoots great and looks wonderful accept the void, really made me sick when I saw it. I apologize again for t\not being able to meet the expectation you had.

It's a matter of you telling me one thing, but doing something completely different that bothers me.
The fact that you expect me to wait without a reasonable time frame of when you will refund me bothers me as well.
I've been patient and reasonable through this entire ordeal for nearly five months.
Nor do I wish to wait endlessly in the hopes that you'll refund my money eventually.

By the way, regarding the re-finish - I would have agreed to that if you could have provided a reasonable time frame for when it would be finished.
A time-frame you could actually accomplish. Not a bogus time-frame to pacify me for a few weeks till you have a new excuse why it's not done.

I remember how you told me it would ship be in my hands by January 1st -
That came and went, I didn't hear the reason why it hadn't shipped from you, till days later.
Same as what happened this past Monday all over again.
Didn't ship the rifle, and no word from you - even when I requested tracking, till days later.

Why should the OP have to wait until the rifle is sold until a refund is issued? Maybe I'm missing something, but I've yet to see a valid explanation.

Leon,

I apologize again there has been no intention of missing time frames with you.
I believe I have this rifle sold tomorrow.
I have done business with this person and he is looking for a polish rifle he called me regarding a kit. I told him I have a rifle.
I did not intend to make you look or feel like a imbecile, If I did I apologize.
Leon I have done every thing I can to get the clear coat to work I have hours in this rifle only to find a void and small flakes on the muzzle. There are builders out there that would have sent it out and said screw it! you own it. I did not do that and would not. Here we are now. I am not trying to hijack your money or the rifle. I want you to be hole but I also want to be hole as well on this.
You have a certain amount of commitment to the receiver with the engraving.

Jim

WOW!

The Buyer should not have to wait for you to sell the rifle to refund him.
You should have the money to cover all deals you do out here in case a problem like this arises.
To me this is simple you refund his money ASAP then you sell the rifle to get your money back.
Making him wait is BS he has waited long enough.

What I would be really curious to see is a picture of the void in the weld and the clear-coat chipping.



Regarding the commitment to the receiver.
I had commitment to the rifle, you failed to come through numerous times.
You over-promised, and under-delivered countless times.
At the end of the day you were not able to produce a product I paid you for.
Any possible guilt I could have of having you personalize the item was diminished when you clearly and coldly stated you would scrub my grandfathers name off the receiver, and have no problem selling it.



"I’ll scrub your Grand Fathers name from the receiver and blast it shoot it and sell it. No problem on my end.
I’ll get the Money out tomorrow."

deleted

Rifle sold today. Customer will have a complete refund sent tomorrow.

Again I apologize to Leon for the inability to complete the project as quoted.
No malicious intent on my end.
Jim
Post Delaer Sample SubPar

Glad to see this resolved!

As a working gunsmith this is a constant worry and since we sell "ouselves" it is a one sided situation.
What I mean by that is:

We agree to things with customers based on experience (timelines).
Then customers (who have only their project to think about) ask for changes. Many times these changes disrupt the timeline but in trying to be accomodating we take things back apart and waste time trying to be "good guys".
It appears the gunsmith did this repeatedly for the customer here in this situation.

Personalizing the firearm pushed this out of the realm of product and into "PERSONAL". I agree with the thought of no refunds in this situation (like a tattoo). It appears that a compromise was reached.

Customers view these things as "personal" and gunsmiths as "business" this is why customers make them PERSONAL like this one airing his dirty laundry in public which is disgusting because he did so in a manner as to be disparaging for only one reason..........

It does not even appear to be a valid feedback on this site as the vendor/gunsmith did not sell him services from an ad listed on this site. Therefore ADMIN should remove this whole thread!

Clearly you didn't read this thread at all.
Though I do appreciate your incoherent two cents.

Lastly, it was a staff member that advised me to start the thread to begin with.

I received the refund this past weekend.
This thread can be locked.

When things go from run-of-the-mill to personal. People often assume their vision of the end-product has been telepathically placed in the head of the one who is responsible for delivering it.
Gunsmiths are Artists................................like it or not....the product is forged with their hands and their minds........if you could do it yourself there would be no need for a Smith of any type. I have several Smith friends. It is NOT EASY. It is NOT LUCRATIVE. It is NOT PAINT-BY-NUMBER.

I'm glad to see things resolved........but bashing someone who is personalizing something for another person doesn't make sense. Like everything else in this life...things happen. GunSmithing is a dying art. I respect all who are working at it. These things are metal and wood. Neither mediums are perfect, and the end result is never perfect.

Take on a contract for someone sometime..............better yet......several. See how long it takes before someone bashes you for your hard work, lost money, and lost sleep, and see how quick you want to give it up.

I'll probably aggravate some people but I am tired of people with good reputations getting bashed for something personal gone amuck, both locally and on the net. Have some respect folks...settle it personally....ESPECIALLY if you didn't purchase a good or service on the EE.

Those are my two cents....which are worth even less now due to inflation.

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