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"Off Limits" areas for a PA LTCF
4/4/2012 1:32:04 PM
I consider myself fairly well acquainted with the PA Uniform Firearms Act (as well as any resident, LTCF holder, and sportsman should be).
I renewed my permit in Montgomery county today and received a letter from Sheriff's department that said two things that I'm not sure are pursuant with the UFA.
1) carrying at a University is prohibited. The law states elementary or secondary school.
2) carrying at any place with a "no weapons" sign is prohibited. The state of PA does not have a 30.06 style laws as far as I know. Of course private property trumps all, but concealed means concealed. I can find no penalty or crime defined for possessing a firearm on private property where the property owner has said "no guns allowed" other than if you refuse to leave you can be trespassed (but that can be done for any reason regardless of what you're carrying).
Can anyone chime in on this?
the latest revision to the UFA I've found online is 2009. Did I fall asleep at the wheel?
Have universities been added as prohibited places?
Did PA add a misdemeanor or felony charge for simply possessing a weapon if a property owner posts a sign?
Am I reading too much into this? I'll post a copy of the letter if I can find a place to host PDFs.
I renewed my permit in Montgomery county today and received a letter from Sheriff's department that said two things that I'm not sure are pursuant with the UFA.
1) carrying at a University is prohibited. The law states elementary or secondary school.
2) carrying at any place with a "no weapons" sign is prohibited. The state of PA does not have a 30.06 style laws as far as I know. Of course private property trumps all, but concealed means concealed. I can find no penalty or crime defined for possessing a firearm on private property where the property owner has said "no guns allowed" other than if you refuse to leave you can be trespassed (but that can be done for any reason regardless of what you're carrying).
Can anyone chime in on this?
the latest revision to the UFA I've found online is 2009. Did I fall asleep at the wheel?
Have universities been added as prohibited places?
Did PA add a misdemeanor or felony charge for simply possessing a weapon if a property owner posts a sign?
Am I reading too much into this? I'll post a copy of the letter if I can find a place to host PDFs.
4/4/2012 3:05:33 PM
If the property is posted "No Firearms", they get you with a Trespassing violation.
From what I've read, since it's private property, you're there on a conditional basis. Since they posted No Firearms, they don't need to tell you twice.
IIRC
I'm not sure on the Universities thing.
From what I've read, since it's private property, you're there on a conditional basis. Since they posted No Firearms, they don't need to tell you twice.
IIRC
I'm not sure on the Universities thing.
4/4/2012 3:23:09 PM
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
If the property is posted "No Firearms", they get you with a Trespassing violation.
From what I've read, since it's private property, you're there on a conditional basis. Since they posted No Firearms, they don't need to tell you twice.
IIRC
I'm not sure on the Universities thing.
I was told they need to post it properly with the legal language if it's a businessIf the property is posted "No Firearms", they get you with a Trespassing violation.
From what I've read, since it's private property, you're there on a conditional basis. Since they posted No Firearms, they don't need to tell you twice.
IIRC
I'm not sure on the Universities thing.
4/4/2012 3:24:31 PM
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
If the property is posted "No Firearms", they get you with a Trespassing violation.
From what I've read, since it's private property, you're there on a conditional basis. Since they posted No Firearms, they don't need to tell you twice.
IIRC
I'm not sure on the Universities thing.
If the property is posted "No Firearms", they get you with a Trespassing violation.
From what I've read, since it's private property, you're there on a conditional basis. Since they posted No Firearms, they don't need to tell you twice.
IIRC
I'm not sure on the Universities thing.
interesting...
i'm reading PA trespass law now.
the thing I'm seeing is this
(c) Defenses.It is a defense to prosecution under this
section that:
(2) the premises were at the time open to members of the
public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions
imposed on access to or remaining in the premises; or
section that:
(2) the premises were at the time open to members of the
public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions
imposed on access to or remaining in the premises; or
since one of the lawful conditions is "no weapons", I have no defense against trespass, but I would have to meet the criteria for trespass to even need a defense, and simply carrying a gun on the property is not a trespass-able offense as far as i can tell (unlike states like TX with 30.06 laws)
(b) Defiant trespasser.
(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is
not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in
any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:
(i) actual communication to the actor;
(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or
reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;
(iii) fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed
to exclude intruders;
(iv) notices posted in a manner prescribed by law or
reasonably likely to come to the person's attention at
each entrance of school grounds that visitors are
prohibited without authorization from a designated
school, center or program official; or
(v) an actual communication to the actor to leave
school grounds as communicated by a school, center or
program official, employee or agent or a law enforcement
officer.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (1)(v), an offense
under this subsection constitutes a misdemeanor of the third
degree if the offender defies an order to leave personally
communicated to him by the owner of the premises or other
authorized person. An offense under paragraph (1)(v)
constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree. Otherwise it
is a summary offense.
(b.1) Simple trespasser.
(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is
not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in
any place for the purpose of:
(i) threatening or terrorizing the owner or occupant
of the premises;
(ii) starting or causing to be started any fire upon
the premises; or
(iii) defacing or damaging the premises.
(2) An offense under this subsection constitutes a
summary offense.
(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is
not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in
any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:
(i) actual communication to the actor;
(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or
reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;
(iii) fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed
to exclude intruders;
(iv) notices posted in a manner prescribed by law or
reasonably likely to come to the person's attention at
each entrance of school grounds that visitors are
prohibited without authorization from a designated
school, center or program official; or
(v) an actual communication to the actor to leave
school grounds as communicated by a school, center or
program official, employee or agent or a law enforcement
officer.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (1)(v), an offense
under this subsection constitutes a misdemeanor of the third
degree if the offender defies an order to leave personally
communicated to him by the owner of the premises or other
authorized person. An offense under paragraph (1)(v)
constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree. Otherwise it
is a summary offense.
(b.1) Simple trespasser.
(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is
not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in
any place for the purpose of:
(i) threatening or terrorizing the owner or occupant
of the premises;
(ii) starting or causing to be started any fire upon
the premises; or
(iii) defacing or damaging the premises.
(2) An offense under this subsection constitutes a
summary offense.
For the first part in red, I have to be told to "leave the premises", if I don't i'm guilty of criminal "defiant trespass". Is a "weapons prohibited" sign equal to a posted "no trespassing" sign?
The second part in red seems to be what a private business owner could use against me if they were to somehow know that I was carrying a weapon, and I could be convicted of simple trespass which is a summary offense...
4/4/2012 7:45:56 PM
The sign carries no legal weight.
If the sign said no smoking, but yet you smoked inside the building, you are not cited for trespassing just because you lit up. If the sign said, no polka-dot shirts, same thing, etc.
If anything, you would be asked to leave. Refuse, and you are now trespassing.
If the sign said no smoking, but yet you smoked inside the building, you are not cited for trespassing just because you lit up. If the sign said, no polka-dot shirts, same thing, etc.
If anything, you would be asked to leave. Refuse, and you are now trespassing.
4/12/2012 7:45:28 AM
A University is not the same as a school in this instance. It is treated like Private Property.
Add Court Facilities, prisons to the list of places prohibitted by State Law. Of course Post Office property and buildings on a Federal Park are also prohibitted. Bars, banks, hospitals and churches are all legal.
Add Court Facilities, prisons to the list of places prohibitted by State Law. Of course Post Office property and buildings on a Federal Park are also prohibitted. Bars, banks, hospitals and churches are all legal.
4/13/2012 6:37:26 AM
Maybe ask a lawyer familar with the CCW laws to be SURE? 
4/16/2012 6:36:38 PM
Universities almost always have a rule stating that weapons are not allowed on the premises. That could be interpreted in the same manner as a "No Guns" sign on someone's property. If it's a state university, I believe it falls under "government" building, in which it is also prohibited to carry a firearm. The one I find strange is that it is perfectly legal (but frowned upon) to carry in a bank.
