Archived Posts » 59,726,163
AR receiver/pistol.. need to fill out WA pistol transfer form?
2/6/2012 9:18:01 PM
Just wondering if we need to fill out a WA state pistol transfer forms if building a AR pistol from a stripped receiver. I know the ATF point of view we are good to go, but was wondering the legality of it in respects to WA state laws. I hear & read mixed information about it, and trying to get the right information, rather than "opinions". One FFL told me that I don't..
2/6/2012 11:17:39 PM
No.
2/7/2012 12:40:13 AM
Required? Probably not, but it would not hurt. Also it would create a paper trail showing that this is indeed a pistol and not a cut down rifle. I would say it's optional, but not a terrible idea.
2/7/2012 12:45:47 PM
No. You can build it into whatever you want. You can even build it into a pistol, then build it into a rifle and make it back into a pistol again, as long as you don't violate any NFA laws in the process.
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
2/7/2012 5:17:07 PM
I don't understand the SBR/AR pistol laws.
If I have an SBR upper attached to AR pistol lower it's legal?
But if I have an SBR upper attached to a regular AR lower it's illegal? Is that right or am I confused?
If I have an SBR upper attached to AR pistol lower it's legal?
But if I have an SBR upper attached to a regular AR lower it's illegal? Is that right or am I confused?
2/7/2012 8:50:24 PM
You have it right. Basically if it has a barrel that is less than 16 inches and it has a butt stock then it is an SBR and it is illegal in WA. There are some exceptions to the rule but that's it in a nutshell.
To the OP... The WA pistol form is required for dealers to get before they sell a pistol but there is no penalty for a buyer who doesn't fill one out. It's not really a problem on your end no matter what. Just don't tell the dealer what you are using the stripped lower for, unless you want the thing listed as a pistol in the WA DOL database.
To the OP... The WA pistol form is required for dealers to get before they sell a pistol but there is no penalty for a buyer who doesn't fill one out. It's not really a problem on your end no matter what. Just don't tell the dealer what you are using the stripped lower for, unless you want the thing listed as a pistol in the WA DOL database.
2/7/2012 11:19:01 PM
Originally Posted By iRidiculous:
I don't understand the SBR/AR pistol laws.
If I have an SBR upper attached to AR pistol lower it's legal?
But if I have an SBR upper attached to a regular AR lower it's illegal? Is that right or am I confused?
I don't understand the SBR/AR pistol laws.
If I have an SBR upper attached to AR pistol lower it's legal?
But if I have an SBR upper attached to a regular AR lower it's illegal? Is that right or am I confused?
If you put a barrel thats less then 16" long on a "rifle" lower its a SBR. There is no limit on pistol barrel lengths, min or max, under Federal law.
A pistol is handheld, a rifle is meant to be fired from the shoulder.
If it started out life as a "rifle" with a stock then it'll always be a rifle.
A pistol has some leeway, it can be made into a rifle and then back into pistol configuration as stated in this thread already. Add barrel, then stock. Reattach pistol barrel once stock is removed. Pistol barrel(<16") with stock is a short barreled rifle no matter how the receiver is papered unless its an MG
2/8/2012 1:19:09 PM
Originally Posted By iRidiculous:
I don't understand the SBR/AR pistol laws.
If I have an SBR upper attached to AR pistol lower it's legal?
But if I have an SBR upper attached to a regular AR lower it's illegal? Is that right or am I confused?
I don't understand the SBR/AR pistol laws.
If I have an SBR upper attached to AR pistol lower it's legal?
But if I have an SBR upper attached to a regular AR lower it's illegal? Is that right or am I confused?
Actually you have verbiage that is wrong. The upper alone is not a SBR. It's just a upper with a barrel less than 16" in length. (Note talking about BARREL, which does not include the flash hider unless it's pinned on)
SBR is when you have the short barrel upper attached to a lower with a stock.
AR Pistol is one where you have the short barrel upper attached to a lower without a stock. Note that the buffer tube is not consider a stock.
2/9/2012 3:58:07 PM
Originally Posted By Ryo:
Actually you have verbiage that is wrong. The upper alone is not a SBR. It's just a upper with a barrel less than 16" in length. (Note talking about BARREL, which does not include the flash hider unless it's pinned on)
SBR is when you have the short barrel upper attached to a lower with a stock.
AR Pistol is one where you have the short barrel upper attached to a lower without a stock. Note that the buffer tube is not consider a stock.
Originally Posted By iRidiculous:
I don't understand the SBR/AR pistol laws.
If I have an SBR upper attached to AR pistol lower it's legal?
But if I have an SBR upper attached to a regular AR lower it's illegal? Is that right or am I confused?
I don't understand the SBR/AR pistol laws.
If I have an SBR upper attached to AR pistol lower it's legal?
But if I have an SBR upper attached to a regular AR lower it's illegal? Is that right or am I confused?
Actually you have verbiage that is wrong. The upper alone is not a SBR. It's just a upper with a barrel less than 16" in length. (Note talking about BARREL, which does not include the flash hider unless it's pinned on)
SBR is when you have the short barrel upper attached to a lower with a stock.
AR Pistol is one where you have the short barrel upper attached to a lower without a stock. Note that the buffer tube is not consider a stock.
So if I have a pistol lower, without any documentation or paperwork to prove it's a pistol lower, I can legally order an upper with a 12.5 inch barrel?
And if/when the ATF comes knocking on my door asking about my SBR I can just tell them, "no silly, that's a pistol!"
And they are relying on the honor system assuming I won't attach the short barrel upper to any of my rifle lowers? (I'd never do that, promise!)
This is how the law works in our state?
2/9/2012 11:18:55 PM
Originally Posted By iRidiculous:
So if I have a pistol lower, without any documentation or paperwork to prove it's a pistol lower, I can legally order an upper with a 12.5 inch barrel?
And if/when the ATF comes knocking on my door asking about my SBR I can just tell them, "no silly, that's a pistol!"
And they are relying on the honor system assuming I won't attach the short barrel upper to any of my rifle lowers? (I'd never do that, promise!)
This is how the law works in our state?
So if I have a pistol lower, without any documentation or paperwork to prove it's a pistol lower, I can legally order an upper with a 12.5 inch barrel?
And if/when the ATF comes knocking on my door asking about my SBR I can just tell them, "no silly, that's a pistol!"
And they are relying on the honor system assuming I won't attach the short barrel upper to any of my rifle lowers? (I'd never do that, promise!)
This is how the law works in our state?
You can order a barrel any length you want any time you want with no restrictions.
It's not an Short Barrelled Rifle until you put a riflestock on the lower with a barrel thats less then 16" in length.
They're relying on the legal system that places the burden on the government to prove you committed a crime by assembling an untaxed short barrelled rifle, and that legally defines a rifle as shoulder fired. That pretty much requires them to catch you with an assembled untaxed SBR.
2/10/2012 12:14:26 PM
Originally Posted By iRidiculous:
So if I have a pistol lower, without any documentation or paperwork to prove it's a pistol lower, I can legally order an upper with a 12.5 inch barrel?
And if/when the ATF comes knocking on my door asking about my SBR I can just tell them, "no silly, that's a pistol!"
And they are relying on the honor system assuming I won't attach the short barrel upper to any of my rifle lowers? (I'd never do that, promise!)
This is how the law works in our state?
Originally Posted By Ryo:
Actually you have verbiage that is wrong. The upper alone is not a SBR. It's just a upper with a barrel less than 16" in length. (Note talking about BARREL, which does not include the flash hider unless it's pinned on)
SBR is when you have the short barrel upper attached to a lower with a stock.
AR Pistol is one where you have the short barrel upper attached to a lower without a stock. Note that the buffer tube is not consider a stock.
Originally Posted By iRidiculous:
I don't understand the SBR/AR pistol laws.
If I have an SBR upper attached to AR pistol lower it's legal?
But if I have an SBR upper attached to a regular AR lower it's illegal? Is that right or am I confused?
I don't understand the SBR/AR pistol laws.
If I have an SBR upper attached to AR pistol lower it's legal?
But if I have an SBR upper attached to a regular AR lower it's illegal? Is that right or am I confused?
Actually you have verbiage that is wrong. The upper alone is not a SBR. It's just a upper with a barrel less than 16" in length. (Note talking about BARREL, which does not include the flash hider unless it's pinned on)
SBR is when you have the short barrel upper attached to a lower with a stock.
AR Pistol is one where you have the short barrel upper attached to a lower without a stock. Note that the buffer tube is not consider a stock.
So if I have a pistol lower, without any documentation or paperwork to prove it's a pistol lower, I can legally order an upper with a 12.5 inch barrel?
And if/when the ATF comes knocking on my door asking about my SBR I can just tell them, "no silly, that's a pistol!"
And they are relying on the honor system assuming I won't attach the short barrel upper to any of my rifle lowers? (I'd never do that, promise!)
This is how the law works in our state?
You can order the upper without any issues.
ATF probably won't be knocking at your door. More likely a LEO would stop you when they see it and inquire about it. Now how the LEO handles the situation can be where the gray area (IMHO). There's always a chance for an uninformed LEO might arrest you, or confiscate the AR pistol, you really can't tell nowadays about those type of things.
Now this is where my question comes into play.. Do we need to register it as a "pistol" if it was built off a stripped lower.. I suppose paying more to do the transfer/purchase of the receiver to be a pistol is a sure guarantee to not have issues. Note ask for a copy of the form so you can keep it with the AR. I did that on one of my AR pistols.
2/10/2012 2:18:04 PM
What is a pistol buffer tube called? Does everyone sell them, or where would be the best place to find one?
2/10/2012 10:42:13 PM
Originally Posted By iRidiculous:
What is a pistol buffer tube called? Does everyone sell them, or where would be the best place to find one?
What is a pistol buffer tube called? Does everyone sell them, or where would be the best place to find one?
There are a few companies that make them. ie Rock River Arms, Spike's, Primary Arms
Places to buy them are direct manufacturer or dealers like Brownells, MidwayUSA, etc.
link: AR-15 pistol buffer tube extension
2/11/2012 1:28:22 PM
I filled out the form when I built my AR pistola. Not required, but I saw no reason not to...
2/11/2012 6:26:44 PM
I bought three receivers via Waffenfabrik West about 5-6 years ago. I called JW a few months after the transfer asking if I could build one of these into an AR pistol. He told me that he was required to designate these as either pistols or rifles at time of transfer, and defaulted with "rifle", so I had to buy another pistol lower altogether. During another transfer he showed me his paperwork on the receivers and the rifle or pistol designation field with "rifle" was listed next to my three receivers. He also indicated this was a WA state thing.
When I purchased my pistol receiver from Surplus Arms & Arms in Lakewood, I had to specifically designate it as such at time of purchase/transfer.
I think there's a lot of confusion on this topic, but those two dealers both felt there had to be a specific designation at time of transfer. Your mileage may vary.
When I purchased my pistol receiver from Surplus Arms & Arms in Lakewood, I had to specifically designate it as such at time of purchase/transfer.
I think there's a lot of confusion on this topic, but those two dealers both felt there had to be a specific designation at time of transfer. Your mileage may vary.
2/12/2012 1:53:40 PM
Is there any harm in doing the paperwork? No. Is there any good that can come from it? Only irrefutable proof that the lower was initially transfered as a pistol.
2/13/2012 1:14:21 AM
Originally Posted By Gastonite:
I bought three receivers via Waffenfabrik West about 5-6 years ago. I called JW a few months after the transfer asking if I could build one of these into an AR pistol. He told me that he was required to designate these as either pistols or rifles at time of transfer, and defaulted with "rifle", so I had to buy another pistol lower altogether. During another transfer he showed me his paperwork on the receivers and the rifle or pistol designation field with "rifle" was listed next to my three receivers. He also indicated this was a WA state thing.
When I purchased my pistol receiver from Surplus Arms & Arms in Lakewood, I had to specifically designate it as such at time of purchase/transfer.
I think there's a lot of confusion on this topic, but those two dealers both felt there had to be a specific designation at time of transfer. Your mileage may vary.
I bought three receivers via Waffenfabrik West about 5-6 years ago. I called JW a few months after the transfer asking if I could build one of these into an AR pistol. He told me that he was required to designate these as either pistols or rifles at time of transfer, and defaulted with "rifle", so I had to buy another pistol lower altogether. During another transfer he showed me his paperwork on the receivers and the rifle or pistol designation field with "rifle" was listed next to my three receivers. He also indicated this was a WA state thing.
When I purchased my pistol receiver from Surplus Arms & Arms in Lakewood, I had to specifically designate it as such at time of purchase/transfer.
I think there's a lot of confusion on this topic, but those two dealers both felt there had to be a specific designation at time of transfer. Your mileage may vary.
As I recall back then, it was rifle or pistol. Nowadays, it is rifle, pistol or other. With the other for stripped receivers.
2/13/2012 9:47:59 AM
Originally Posted By KalihiJack:
As I recall back then, it was rifle or pistol. Nowadays, it is rifle, pistol or other. With the other for stripped receivers.
Originally Posted By Gastonite:
I bought three receivers via Waffenfabrik West about 5-6 years ago. I called JW a few months after the transfer asking if I could build one of these into an AR pistol. He told me that he was required to designate these as either pistols or rifles at time of transfer, and defaulted with "rifle", so I had to buy another pistol lower altogether. During another transfer he showed me his paperwork on the receivers and the rifle or pistol designation field with "rifle" was listed next to my three receivers. He also indicated this was a WA state thing.
When I purchased my pistol receiver from Surplus Arms & Arms in Lakewood, I had to specifically designate it as such at time of purchase/transfer.
I think there's a lot of confusion on this topic, but those two dealers both felt there had to be a specific designation at time of transfer. Your mileage may vary.
I bought three receivers via Waffenfabrik West about 5-6 years ago. I called JW a few months after the transfer asking if I could build one of these into an AR pistol. He told me that he was required to designate these as either pistols or rifles at time of transfer, and defaulted with "rifle", so I had to buy another pistol lower altogether. During another transfer he showed me his paperwork on the receivers and the rifle or pistol designation field with "rifle" was listed next to my three receivers. He also indicated this was a WA state thing.
When I purchased my pistol receiver from Surplus Arms & Arms in Lakewood, I had to specifically designate it as such at time of purchase/transfer.
I think there's a lot of confusion on this topic, but those two dealers both felt there had to be a specific designation at time of transfer. Your mileage may vary.
As I recall back then, it was rifle or pistol. Nowadays, it is rifle, pistol or other. With the other for stripped receivers.
On the 4473, yes... however, you have the option of requesting the Washington state handgun transfer form completed.
2/13/2012 1:01:38 PM
Originally Posted By coug91:
On the 4473, yes... however, you have the option of requesting the Washington state handgun transfer form completed.
Originally Posted By KalihiJack:
As I recall back then, it was rifle or pistol. Nowadays, it is rifle, pistol or other. With the other for stripped receivers.
Originally Posted By Gastonite:
I bought three receivers via Waffenfabrik West about 5-6 years ago. I called JW a few months after the transfer asking if I could build one of these into an AR pistol. He told me that he was required to designate these as either pistols or rifles at time of transfer, and defaulted with "rifle", so I had to buy another pistol lower altogether. During another transfer he showed me his paperwork on the receivers and the rifle or pistol designation field with "rifle" was listed next to my three receivers. He also indicated this was a WA state thing.
When I purchased my pistol receiver from Surplus Arms & Arms in Lakewood, I had to specifically designate it as such at time of purchase/transfer.
I think there's a lot of confusion on this topic, but those two dealers both felt there had to be a specific designation at time of transfer. Your mileage may vary.
I bought three receivers via Waffenfabrik West about 5-6 years ago. I called JW a few months after the transfer asking if I could build one of these into an AR pistol. He told me that he was required to designate these as either pistols or rifles at time of transfer, and defaulted with "rifle", so I had to buy another pistol lower altogether. During another transfer he showed me his paperwork on the receivers and the rifle or pistol designation field with "rifle" was listed next to my three receivers. He also indicated this was a WA state thing.
When I purchased my pistol receiver from Surplus Arms & Arms in Lakewood, I had to specifically designate it as such at time of purchase/transfer.
I think there's a lot of confusion on this topic, but those two dealers both felt there had to be a specific designation at time of transfer. Your mileage may vary.
As I recall back then, it was rifle or pistol. Nowadays, it is rifle, pistol or other. With the other for stripped receivers.
On the 4473, yes... however, you have the option of requesting the Washington state handgun transfer form completed.
This.. WA state pistol transfer form.
I talked to one one of the people who worked with the WA dept dealing firearms... The lady told me ALL AR stripped lowers must have the WA Pistol Transfer form since they can be build up as pistols.. I politely thanked her and hung up. Then I did a face palm. Another uninformed government worker.. Ugh.
2/22/2012 8:17:33 AM
As a stripped lower. No.
I, however, DID fill out the pistol transfer paperwork, even though the 4473 listed 'other'.
The reason, is that the DOL illegally keeps a registry of firearms, pistols in particular..
So, I used their database against them.
Should an officer not be familiar with an AR pistol, and try to lock me up for having an SBR, the fact that their own database lists it as a pistol would sure persuade the officer......
I, however, DID fill out the pistol transfer paperwork, even though the 4473 listed 'other'.
The reason, is that the DOL illegally keeps a registry of firearms, pistols in particular..
So, I used their database against them.
Should an officer not be familiar with an AR pistol, and try to lock me up for having an SBR, the fact that their own database lists it as a pistol would sure persuade the officer......
2/24/2012 2:50:21 AM
If you have only rifles and get a short upper, the ATF will consider you in possession of a SBR even if you never put them together. They state thins in their opinions, FFL letters Faq's, one of those. I've read their statements, but can't remember where. If you search on their website you can find it. I'm too lazy to spend the effort from my Kindle. :)
But if you have one lower never built into a rifle first, you can have all the short uppers you want.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
But if you have one lower never built into a rifle first, you can have all the short uppers you want.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
2/24/2012 2:53:18 AM
Originally Posted By Jparks29:
As a stripped lower. No.
I, however, DID fill out the pistol transfer paperwork, even though the 4473 listed 'other'.
The reason, is that the DOL illegally keeps a registry of firearms, pistols in particular..
So, I used their database against them.
Should an officer not be familiar with an AR pistol, and try to lock me up for having an SBR, the fact that their own database lists it as a pistol would sure persuade the officer......
As a stripped lower. No.
I, however, DID fill out the pistol transfer paperwork, even though the 4473 listed 'other'.
The reason, is that the DOL illegally keeps a registry of firearms, pistols in particular..
So, I used their database against them.
Should an officer not be familiar with an AR pistol, and try to lock me up for having an SBR, the fact that their own database lists it as a pistol would sure persuade the officer......
Same reason I did the form. The state has a copy, my dealer has another.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
