CCW with an SBR.......sorta.

While pondering if there will be any post-election protests/riots/etc, the question came up as to what would be best to carry. Thoughts of an AR came up, but you can only CCW a handgun. Mind you, I'm not looking to actually conceal it per normal definition, but I would like to transport it loaded readily available. So the thought came up... if one had an SBR, and removed the stock, they would have an AR pistol, no? Originally, before I SBR-ed this lower, I used it as a pistol. So legally, federal wise, I should be kosher.

AFAIK, there is no state law that states that such a weapon would not be a handgun, while said stock is not attached. Thoughts?

Nevermind didn't read your post thoroughly the first time

I sounds like your former pistol was turned into an SBR correct? To me that means it will always be a rifle, regardless if you have the stock on or off the weapon.

I for one would not want to have to pay another $200 to SBR another lower when the police confiscate the one used to defend yourself.

Go buy a clearly marked pistol lower and use your SBR/pistol upper on it if needed.

Just IMHO.

This is sound advice in my opinion.

Once a pistol, you can go to rifle, then back to pistol.

ATF has determined that once a weapon no longer meets NFA status, it it a normal Title 1 weapon (MGs exempted). I.E. If you take an SBR, remove the short barrel, put on a barrel of over 16", and it's a normal rifle.

A rifle, turned into a "handgun", is an SBR provided it started out as a rifle, and not a pistol, per Fed law.

Per WI Law, 941.28(1)(b) "Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels having a length of less than 16 inches measured from closed breech or bolt face to muzzle or a rifle having an overall length of less than 26 inches.

941.28(1)(a) "Rifle" means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder or hip and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of a propellant in a metallic cartridge to fire through a rifled barrel a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.

With no stock, it is no longer intended to be fired from the shoulder. Argument could be made that it is intented to be fired from the hip, but same argument could be made for other "handguns", such as the "mare's leg".

If used in self defense, most of the time the weapon used will be temporarily confiscated. I don't quite see the relevance.....I am not planning on acting illegally in any way whatsoever. If they find reason to permanently seize a firearm, odds are the owner would not be able to posess firearms.

True, but once you kill somebody you are generally guilty until proven innocent.
Instead of having my beloved SBR sitting in a evidence box I'd rather give up a pistol I have no attachment too.
Plus if you form 1'd the lower there is a chance the prosecution will try to paint you as "he made this EVIL assault pistol with the intention of killing".
Did the guy from the aldi's shooting get his weapon back?

Again, I would prefer to travel with my SBR instead of a pistol, and it's sad that law abiding citizens are punished but the laws while criminals can roam free with rifles and shotguns.

Someday ask spray about his gold cup.....


Your assumptions about the "criminal justice" system are wildly off mark and 12 feet over the berm.

Agree wholeheartedly. And I understand that prosecution may try to play the "you made this evil baby killing machine" game. To me, it's just an ~$800 rifle. Sure... it's an SBR...but it's not a very high dollar item like a MG. Hell, I bet my normal carry piece set me back more than that AR.

As mentioned above, it's just a tool. And holds less value than my normal CCW piece. If confiscated or stolen by LEO/AG/prosecution...sure i'll be pissed.. but it's not going to be the end of the world.

Let's just go ahead and assume i'll never get it back. The only debate i'm having is whether or not carrying such a firearm would be legal.

I believe it would be legal. But I'm sure a WI LEO will chime in shortly.

If you have no concern about loosing it in the post-shooting fallout you probably have every right to go armed with it as it is configured as a "handgun."

if the ATF classifies it as a pistol I can not see why it would not be legal.

I keep and sbr w/can in my vehicle. My thoughts on that are pretty simple. If I have to fall back and use the thing to defend myself then the shit hit the fan and I'm covered in it. At that point I just want to get out alive and consequences be dammed. By consequences I mean the firearm and can sitting in lockup for over a year.

I am there with you.

However I do not keep my SBR's in my truck for the sole reason that explaining to the ATF/police how my SBR and suppressor were stolen from an unsecured vehicle might not go over so well.

Agreed.

However, legally speaking, your SBR must be in plain view, and unloaded, or unloaded and encased. If my idea is correct, you could remove the stock (leave on buffer tube) and you would be legally permitted to load and conceal said weapon.

Uhhh sure about that? The guy from the Aldi shooting hasn't gotten his gun back yet. That was an ordinary pistol.

Jeff Cooper once said that a pistol is nothing more than the tool you use to fight your way to your rifle... or something like that, you get the idea. Good advice. Why fuck around with a "pistol" AR at all? Carry a hi-cap handgun on your person, and an "inexpensive" full-sized AR or other rifle in your vehicle. Yes it'll be unloaded to be legal, but how long does it take to insert a mag and pull/release the charging handle?

I was at my local Walmart yesterday (Rhinelander). They now have a DPMS "sportical" for $585 (along with some Sig ARs). Next time I'm down there, I'm picking it up to be my "knock-it-around-I-don't-care truck-gun". I've got a $50 red-dot, just sitting on a shelf in my gun safe, to put on it. It'll do "the SHTF job" better than any pistol, and it's no big expense. Most of my handguns are worth more than that.

Don't forget, if uncased, it must be plainly visible from outside of the vehicle, and must be locked if you enter a school zone.

I'm not recommending carring an AR pistol. I think the idea in and of itself is kind of goofy. I am trying to debate is whether it might be a suitable workaround in a pinch.

Say.... you work in Madison. Lots of pissed off hippies and union employees, and your vehicle is emblazoned with Walker stickers. You have concern that you may encounter problems. Sure, extra mags are something. But a loaded AR on the seat may come in handy. and if all you need to do is remove the stock to be able to legally lock and load, why not?

I have not yet found a flaw in this line of thinking..... If it was first assembled as a pistol and currently has no stock, how could a prosecutor claim that what you were carrying was not a pistol?

If you are a licensee, you are not required to case a long gun in a GFSZ so long as you are not in or on the grounds of a school.

When the police arrive the deceased person better be hanging half way out of your vehicle if you had to shoot in that scenario.

There is no right answer if that situation presents itself, just like the flash mobs from last year.

Damned if you do shoot and crippled/dead if you don't.

Am I confused? I thought the only exemption to the GFSZ was for handguns with a valid CCW.

There is always castle doctrine. But I agree....damned if you do, damned if you don't.

This is how the firearm started it's life.



As soon as the form 1 came back, I added the stock. ATF has stated that a buffer tube is not a stock, hence the "remove the stock, have a pistol" idea.

If it was transferred as a handgun and you or your dealer have a record of it I believe it is able to be turned into a handgun again.

Possibly a letter to the ATF is in order to ask for clarification?
Plus then you'll have a personal piece of evidence to prevent prosecution if local LEO decides your SBR/pistol is a SBR.

The latest ruling by the ATF does not require it to ever be transferred as a handgun. It must simply have been assembled as a pistol first. If it was first assembled as a long gun it is always a long gun or SBR.

Take the stickers off ... and find a job in the U.S.A., not a "foreign area".

I know what you're saying, but I think there's a better way. If you have it lying on the seat for "instantaneous" use, then your intentions would be to use it without exiting the drivers seat. Wouldn't a Glock 17 or 19 with a 33rnd mag be more maneuverable inside the vehicle and have just as much firepower in such a close range proposition? If your carry gun was a G19, all you'd need "extra" in your vehicle is the 33rnd mags. They don't have to be cased, don't need to worry about concealment, GFSZ, etc.... they're just bullet holders, and there's no questioning whether or not the Glock is a handgun. Having a full-fledged rifle on board would be a good idea too, in case shit gets bad enough you must abandon the vehicle and hoof it.

I have a G19 in my truck (I carry a Kahr CM9 on my person), and I have 4 of those 33rnd mags too. If I could find a Kel-Tec SUB2000 that takes Glock mags, I'd have that in my truck too. (been looking for almost a year with no luck , I won't pay more than the $400 MSRP, and they're going for $500+ on gunbroker).

You already posted the ATF ruling that says I am in the clear.

"Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA has been made.

Understood.

Making an "other" into a pistol first would give you more possible configurations down the road.

I'm just thinking out loud. I don't live nor work in Madison.

I own a 92, but that's only..what...15 or 17 rounds? Sure... I could order an extended mag, but those are hit and miss in my experience.

Of course, there's the AP-9 (tec-9 knockoff) in the safe, with 30 round mag. At least it has some use as a blunt force weapon.

precisely why I started it as a pistol. THEN went SBR.

So here's a theoretical point - if the ATF has ruled that a buffer tube is not a stock, and in the process of assembling an AR you install the buffer tube *before* the stock, does that mean that every DIY-assembled AR lower is possible to reconfigure as a pistol legally by pulling off the stock?

Shhhhh! Don't give them any ideas!

Hehe. Clever. I think the deal is the way the transfer went. Was it acquired as a pistol or a long gun.... once the acquisition occurs there is the "what is it when it's being built" question. And, does that depend on the intent, the form at any given moment, or something else.

Agreed. It would also be nice to see ANY weapon to be carried under CCW rules.

Stripped lowers transfer as 'other' on a 4473 ... just to make it more complicated

[quote]Originally Posted By the_supreme_g33k:

Stripped lowers transfer as 'other' on a 4473 ... just to make it more complicated [quote]
It actually makes it easier for us and actually less complicated. There is no way for anyone to disprove the fact that we assembled the bare receiver as a pistol first...

Glock 18.

Problem solved.

I would have to say that as long as the A&D records going back to the manufacturer never show the receiver being transferred as a long gun, then you have a defense against any charges of manufacturing an NFA weapon.

Machinegun=not currently legal for CCW.

Austrian boomerang .... Problem solved

I wouldn't worry too much. The worst that's likely to happen is some lib hits you with his purse.

I would not keep an SBR'd lower in a pistol configuration anywhere that it could get stolen (unattended car). While it might not be an SBR at the time it was stolen, you should / might still inform the ATF it was stolen to cover yourself. Then in order to replace it you have to go through the Form 1 process all over again.

Personally, I would spend $200 and get a new pistol lower. Then if it gets stolen, impounded, what ever, its not as much a hastle to replace.

Is this true?

First off, if things are that bad, your vehicle is a more effective tool, just saying. For those advocating pistols with high-cap magazines, you're still shooting an inferior pistol bullet with all the disadvantages that come with pistols. For those advocating SBR's with buffer tubes, how many people have actually done any amount of bonified training shooting that way? There are reasons you don't see that concept taking hold by those that use guns for a living.

There are low-pro backpacks and such that are built for SBR's. Other low-pro concepts like chair bags and such can also work very well, but you have the added arguement on your side that your pack was purpose-built as a guncase if you get the ones that are specifically designed as such. You still have to insert the magazine and load, but your pistol is meant to fight to your rifle if needed anyways. Doing it this way means you have an actual stock to use, and can actually be efficient.

948.605(2)(b)1r does not specify handgun.

Interesting.... so keeping an unloaded longarm in a vehicle is perfectly legal... with no risk of GFSZ issues..no locking rack needed..(minus federal law that is never enforced)......correct?

I don't put much weight on carrying firepower for "SHTF" on the streets and all that, but carrying an AR (or other rifle) while patrolling my land on wheels, bike, dirtbike, jeep, tractor, truck...has always presented a problem, an opening for the man to fuck with me (and they have). Now I patroll with an 14" barreled AR pistol ('stamped' pistol lower) concealed. I never let lack of paper prevent me from exercising my rights, but CCW permits 'helped' me the most on my own private property.\\C361
Stan

Good to know.

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