questions on German Gun ranges

I am supposed to be moving to Germany in a few months and am curious if there are any good gun ranges in the Ramstein/Landstuhl/K-Town area? Also to show that I'm a regular shooter, etc (in order to buy a rifle while living there) is their a particular range I should look into joining?

Are you in the Military???

Tony

Originally Posted By toemag: Are you in the Military??? Tony

my wife is.

Originally Posted By sniper69: Originally Posted By toemag: Are you in the Military??? Tony my wife is.

You Sir are laughing, the Military has all the contacts that you'll be needing, wait till you get here, go visit the MP's and talk to them, they'll know all of the shooter's on base, and they may even be into shooting themselves.

Good luck.

Tony

Originally Posted By toemag: Originally Posted By sniper69: Originally Posted By toemag: Are you in the Military??? Tony my wife is. You Sir are laughing, the Military has all the contacts that you'll be needing, wait till you get here, go visit the MP's and talk to them, they'll know all of the shooter's on base, and they may even be into shooting themselves. Good luck. Tony

Tony,
thanks for the info. My family and I are looking at living off the base. When we get there we are going to look for a house to rent. I have looked at some job opportunities at LRMC and at ramstein through both usajobs and the army website. I'm not sure what other places to look for employment, hopefully the family support office will have information about employment for spouses.

Back on topic of guns - once I go through what is required to buy a firearm in Germany, will i get to keep it in my house or will I have to store it at the base armory or a shooting club?
Thanks again for your help.
Mike

Give me 5 and I'll send you a PM.

Tony

Originally Posted By sniper69: Back on topic of guns - once I go through what is required to buy a firearm in Germany, will i get to keep it in my house or will I have to store it at the base armory or a shooting club? Thanks again for your help.

Here are the steps:

1) Take USAREUR hunting course (and pass).

2) Go to the Landratsamt and apply for (and get) your Jadgschein.

3) Dick-dance around with USAREUR over getting your WBK (Waffenbesitzkarte). Honestly, I would try to go to the Landratsamt and get that there as well (directly through the Germans). The guys up at USAREUR PMO were not very helpful (not assholes, just not a lot of help) and the old MF'er who is in charge of WBK's for US personnel is a PITA.

4) While you're getting your WBK, also get your EU Weapons Pass.

5) Make sure you have a German/EU-approved gun safe (which stores ammo separately from guns, and pistols apart from longarms).

6) Take your guns home!!!

Optionally, you can join a local Schützenverein and qualify as a Sport Shooter and then your WBK will allow you to own more than two pistols (as for hunters), as long as you can show need.

Originally Posted By toemag: You Sir are laughing, the Military has all the contacts that you'll be needing, wait till you get here, go visit the MP's and talk to them, they'll know all of the shooter's on base, and they may even be into shooting themselves.

Tony . . . not to contradict you too much . . . but the MP's (individually) are as unlikely to know who guns as they are to be into shooting themselves (especially in Germany). After the renegotiation of the SOFA that resulted in the tightening of the controls on US privately-owned weapons, the bureaucratic hurdles that service-members face are far too daunting for most lazy-ass Americans to bother with. For Germans it de rigeur, but for Americans, the red-tape and cost of possessing guns in Germany is unbearable.

I stand corrected.

My knowledge is going back a few decades. I can remember being able to buy/sell firearms in the Sporting goods section of the Stars and Stripe's. I used to read that section religiously but never bought anything, even if I was tempted more than once.

I once bought a S&W 586 from the rod and gun in ###########, and found myself in a world of hurt as a British soldier trying to register it on the German net. That was back in the 80's, gowd I feel old, and that experience was responsible for a couple of gray hairs.

Tony

Originally Posted By ShakenNotStirred: Make sure you have a German/EU-approved gun safe (which stores ammo separately from guns).

That depends on the security level. In a vault with low level (Level A & B) the ammo for the gun must be stored seperately, but it is allowed to store ammo with a gun, that not fits the gun. e.g. you can put a .357 magnum revolver together with .44 magnum ammo in the same safe. In high security level vaults (VDS 0 or higher) you can store guns and ammo together, the guns could actually been loaded.

and pistols apart from longarms

Why that? If the vault is classified for handguns (min. B) and huge enough, you can put longguns and handguns together in one safe.

Originally Posted By ShakenNotStirred: Originally Posted By sniper69: Back on topic of guns - once I go through what is required to buy a firearm in Germany, will i get to keep it in my house or will I have to store it at the base armory or a shooting club? Thanks again for your help. Here are the steps: 1) Take USAREUR hunting course (and pass). 2) Go to the Landratsamt and apply for (and get) your Jadgschein. 3) Dick-dance around with USAREUR over getting your WBK (Waffenbesitzkarte). Honestly, I would try to go to the Landratsamt and get that there as well (directly through the Germans). The guys up at USAREUR PMO were not very helpful (not assholes, just not a lot of help) and the old MF'er who is in charge of WBK's for US personnel is a PITA. 4) While you're getting your WBK, also get your EU Weapons Pass. 5) Make sure you have a German/EU-approved gun safe (which stores ammo separately from guns, and pistols apart from longarms). 6) Take your guns home!!! Optionally, you can join a local Schützenverein and qualify as a Sport Shooter and then your WBK will allow you to own more than two pistols (as for hunters), as long as you can show need.

"the old mf'er whi is in charge of WBK's for US personnel is a PITA."
Why is he a PITA - does he not like to issue the WBK's? Also is it in my best interest or is it required that I join a shooting club? Also if my family and I live off base do we have to go through USAREUR, or just through the German side?
Are there any hoops that i would need to jump through to own semi-automatic guns? To buy a handgun/pistol is there any additional paperwork? Last - when we return to the United states in a few years, will I be able to import them into the US (for me not for resale)? My apologies about all of the questions - I'm just trying to make sure I have the info needed.

Originally Posted By sniper69: "the old mf'er whi is in charge of WBK's for US personnel is a PITA." Why is he a PITA - does he not like to issue the WBK's?

He's an old DA civvie who's been in Germany for years and is crotchety. Add that to the fact that he's been the lead on getting the new SOFA-imposed rules implemented and you have a recipe for WBK applications that have literally languished for YEARS (mine took TWO FUCKING YEARS to get pushed through).

Also is it in my best interest or is it required that I join a shooting club? Also if my family and I live off base do we have to go through USAREUR, or just through the German side?

Yes, join a club. You need somewhere to shoot and being in a sanctioned club makes everything easier, if more fun, and gives you a support network. The US R&G clubs are hit-or-miss. The one in Stuttgart is basically a sham, since there are no more R&G facilities. The one in Heidelberg still had a range of its own (when I left in late 2006).

Are there any hoops that i would need to jump through to own semi-automatic guns? Nope. It just has to be legal. The R&G director in Stuttgart hunts deer with a 6.8mm Oberland Arms AR15. To buy a handgun/pistol is there any additional paperwork? No, but you're limited to two with the Jagdschein and Hunter's WBK. Last - when we return to the United states in a few years, will I be able to import them into the US (for me not for resale)? My apologies about all of the questions - I'm just trying to make sure I have the info needed.

The USAREUR PMO website has information on importing personal guns. It would be easier if your wife owned them (since she's the service member). For you, it shouldn't be too much of a hassle, as long as the are importable guns. Basically, if the ATF doesn't let it in for us to buy here in the US, you won't get approval to bring it in. Thus, no AK's, AR's, SIG rifles, etc.

shakennotstirred - thanks for the reply. Seems like it will be easier to just deal with the German side than with USAREUR for the WBK.

Originally Posted By sniper69: shakennotstirred - thanks for the reply. Seems like it will be easier to just deal with the German side than with USAREUR for the WBK.

That would depend on your status, are you going to remain the spouse of, or are you going to register at the local Einwohnermeldeamt and get the stamp in your passport etc, which will mean that you have to pay taxes to the German Government on what you earn? Which I wouldn't advise.

Please let me know when you are coming over, one of my cousins has just married a GI., that she met in Korea while she was working as a teacher out there. He is stationed in Bamberg, she moved here to be near him, love...I'm planning on paying her a visit once he has shipped out to the sand box at the beginning of September. Maybe we could meet up, alternatively you could come pay me a visit at the weekend and we could go to my local range.

Tony

As a Texan I am puzzled? Do the Germans or a police officer just come in your house to check where your guns are, or is this a "show proof you own a safe like this one" type deal? Do you get to keep any guns out and loaded in your house for protection?

Originally Posted By ARsR4ME: As a Texan I am puzzled? Do the Germans or a police officer just come in your house to check where your guns are, or is this a "show proof you own a safe like this one" type deal? Do you get to keep any guns out and loaded in your house for protection?

I have never had a visit to see just how my stuff is stored, but they have the right to come have a look if they want to. It's more complicated than in the US., as we have to join a club be a member for a certain amount of time, pass a proficiency test, apply for a weapons permit (Waffenbesitzkarte) and the weapons that we'd like to buy, from the club they have to confirm that you are a regular shooter and the range is certified for weapons of that calibre and that the association has disciplines for that type of weapon. From the date that you get permission to purchase the weapons you have one year to buy the weapon(s) of your choice in that calibre.

Having bought the weapon, you then have 2 weeks in which you have to register the weapon and have it's details entered into your Permit, the seller has to inform your licensing authority that you have bought the weapon, normally a copy of the bill of sale will be faxed to them, after the deal is completed. When you go to the licensing authority you have to fill out an application form and one of the Questions on that form is where you intend to store the weapon, the easiest way to counter this is to have a copy of the receipt for your gun safe and attach it to the application form.

As a hunter you just go and buy the rifle of your choice, and register it within two week's, you have to apply at your licensing authority for hand guns, the calibre must have a minimum of 200 joules at the muzzle, unless you are a hunter that uses trap's, and want a .22lr for dispatching caught game.

German LEO's have back door laws in the PAG. (Polizei Aufgaben Gesetz/ Police task Law), If a LEO claims Gefahr im verzug (imminent danger) or verdünkelungs gefahr (tampering with evidence), and you try to stopping him/her, you loose.

Hope this helped.

Tony

Originally Posted By ARsR4ME: Do you get to keep any guns out and loaded in your house for protection?

This is where it gets complicated, theoretically you can carry 24/7 on your own premisses, even without a CCW (Waffenschein), however, and this is where it gets complicated if you carry at home and something happens you will have a hard time trying to explain why you felt the need to carry, the Police and the authorities may then start asking themselves if you are mentally stable enough to be a weapon owner.

As most people in Germany rent an apartment/house and don't own them it could be an infringement of your rent contract which will be the lesser of your problems.

If you stash a hand gun for protection under your bed and they do call round to check on something as banal as a disturbance and find that weapon, you loose, you broke the law on storage of weapons and ammo, meaning that you are no longer to be considered a responsible weapon owner, and that right will be taken from you.

I might add that the levels of crime in 90%+ of Germany happen in the inner city's, and are carried out by mostly foreigners, and it is mainly robbery, burglary and theft of one type or another, we have the usual other crimes, but they seem to be the main stream crimes.

I live 30 kilometres south of Munich in a village that has a population of less than 3,000, and we have the usual petty crime here, no home invasions, drive by shootings etc etc. I don't feel threatened in any way, that I'd want to CCW 42/7.

I worked as a Security officer for about 10 years in Munich, occasionally armed, but most of the time unarmed, only ever had to use the 3d cell maglite once, and got a dressing down from my supervisor that I should have called it in and let the Police deal with it.

Tony

Wow Thanks for the info guys that was some interesting info. It sounds like you guys have it rougher than our California Brothern. You guys be safe and keep shooting as much as you can.

Originally Posted By toemag: That would depend on your status, are you going to remain the spouse of, or are you going to register at the local Einwohnermeldeamt and get the stamp in your passport etc, which will mean that you have to pay taxes to the German Government on what you earn? Which I wouldn't advise. Please let me know when you are coming over, one of my cousins has just married a GI., that she met in Korea while she was working as a teacher out there. He is stationed in Bamberg, she moved here to be near him, love...I'm planning on paying her a visit once he has shipped out to the sand box at the beginning of September. Maybe we could meet up, alternatively you could come pay me a visit at the weekend and we could go to my local range. Tony

Tony - I'm planning on remaining a spouse. It looks like I'll need to find a range that shoots the type of weapons I like and then go through whatever hoops are needed. Hopefully it won't be to bad.
My family and I will be heading over the last week of September. Then it will be time to find a house to rent, the kids into school, and all that other fun settling in stuff. I hope we are able to meet up, whether to go shooting or to just throw back a few drinks (or root beers ).

Originally Posted By ARsR4ME: Wow Thanks for the info guys that was some interesting info. It sounds like you guys have it rougher than our California Brothern. You guys be safe and keep shooting as much as you can.

ARsR4ME - this thread does have some good info. For me - it seems like I have a lot to learn how the laws work over there compared to here in Alabama.

Originally Posted By sniper69: Originally Posted By toemag: That would depend on your status, are you going to remain the spouse of, or are you going to register at the local Einwohnermeldeamt and get the stamp in your passport etc, which will mean that you have to pay taxes to the German Government on what you earn? Which I wouldn't advise. Please let me know when you are coming over, one of my cousins has just married a GI., that she met in Korea while she was working as a teacher out there. He is stationed in Bamberg, she moved here to be near him, love...I'm planning on paying her a visit once he has shipped out to the sand box at the beginning of September. Maybe we could meet up, alternatively you could come pay me a visit at the weekend and we could go to my local range. Tony Tony - I'm planning on remaining a spouse. It looks like I'll need to find a range that shoots the type of weapons I like and then go through whatever hoops are needed. Hopefully it won't be to bad. My family and I will be heading over the last week of September. Then it will be time to find a house to rent, the kids into school, and all that other fun settling in stuff. I hope we are able to meet up, whether to go shooting or to just throw back a few drinks (or root beers ).

We could do both, shooting and drinks, BTW. I love the root beer that the PX does. HINT.....

Tony

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