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Gifting a Handgun in NJ
12/12/2011 5:39:51 PM
Hey,
I was thinking about giving my Dad a handgun from Christmas this year, and was wondering what we have to do to make that legal?
We are both NJ residents with FIDs. I figure I'd have to buy the gun with my permit to purchase, but then how to I transfer it to him?
Thanks
I was thinking about giving my Dad a handgun from Christmas this year, and was wondering what we have to do to make that legal?
We are both NJ residents with FIDs. I figure I'd have to buy the gun with my permit to purchase, but then how to I transfer it to him?
Thanks
12/12/2011 5:45:20 PM
1) Die and leave it to him in your will
2) Have him get a Pistol Purchase Permit from his local PD
3) Both of you move to America (not the PRNJ)
2) Have him get a Pistol Purchase Permit from his local PD
3) Both of you move to America (not the PRNJ)
12/12/2011 6:04:18 PM
Option 1: You can buy it, pay the NICS and transfer for yourself, wrap it up and give it to him. And, then pay the NICS and transfer *again* for the transfer from you to your Dad.
Or, Option 2: you could buy it and leave it at the FFL, put a picture in a card, give your dad the card and then take him to the FFL on the 26th and only pay the NICS and transfer fees once.
Or, Option 3 (if you are buying NJ retail): Take your dad to the gun store and pay for in his name.
Or, Option 2: you could buy it and leave it at the FFL, put a picture in a card, give your dad the card and then take him to the FFL on the 26th and only pay the NICS and transfer fees once.
Or, Option 3 (if you are buying NJ retail): Take your dad to the gun store and pay for in his name.
12/12/2011 7:04:11 PM
Originally Posted By dontalo:
Option 1: You can buy it, pay the NICS and transfer for yourself, wrap it up and give it to him. And, then pay the NICS and transfer *again* for the transfer from you to your Dad. Not without Dad having his own permit to purchase. And, if Dad has a P2P, there's no need to transfer through an FFL - perfectly legal to transfer face-to-face
Or, Option 2: you could buy it and leave it at the FFL, put a picture in a card, give your dad the card and then take him to the FFL on the 26th and only pay the NICS and transfer fees once.Most FFLs won't want to do this... too close to a straw purchase (person purchasing the firearm isn't the one that it's transferred to)
Or, Option 3 (if you are buying NJ retail): Take your dad to the gun store and pay for in his name.Again, another straw purchase
Option 1: You can buy it, pay the NICS and transfer for yourself, wrap it up and give it to him. And, then pay the NICS and transfer *again* for the transfer from you to your Dad. Not without Dad having his own permit to purchase. And, if Dad has a P2P, there's no need to transfer through an FFL - perfectly legal to transfer face-to-face
Or, Option 2: you could buy it and leave it at the FFL, put a picture in a card, give your dad the card and then take him to the FFL on the 26th and only pay the NICS and transfer fees once.Most FFLs won't want to do this... too close to a straw purchase (person purchasing the firearm isn't the one that it's transferred to)
Or, Option 3 (if you are buying NJ retail): Take your dad to the gun store and pay for in his name.Again, another straw purchase
The only legal way to do this, satisfying both NJ and federal laws, is for the OP to purchase and receive the firearm. He can answer "yes" to the 4473 question, "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm", because he intends to give it as a gift. Then, he transfers the pistol to his Dad, by filling out section A (or is it B? I forget) of the permit to purcahse - the one involving private transfers.
12/12/2011 7:46:00 PM
Originally Posted By Tom488:
The only legal way to do this, satisfying both NJ and federal laws, is for the OP to purchase and receive the firearm. He can answer "yes" to the 4473 question, "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm", because he intends to give it as a gift. Then, he transfers the pistol to his Dad, by filling out section A (or is it B? I forget) of the permit to purcahse - the one involving private transfers.
Originally Posted By dontalo:
Option 1: You can buy it, pay the NICS and transfer for yourself, wrap it up and give it to him. And, then pay the NICS and transfer *again* for the transfer from you to your Dad. Not without Dad having his own permit to purchase. And, if Dad has a P2P, there's no need to transfer through an FFL - perfectly legal to transfer face-to-face
Or, Option 2: you could buy it and leave it at the FFL, put a picture in a card, give your dad the card and then take him to the FFL on the 26th and only pay the NICS and transfer fees once.Most FFLs won't want to do this... too close to a straw purchase (person purchasing the firearm isn't the one that it's transferred to)
Or, Option 3 (if you are buying NJ retail): Take your dad to the gun store and pay for in his name.Again, another straw purchase
Option 1: You can buy it, pay the NICS and transfer for yourself, wrap it up and give it to him. And, then pay the NICS and transfer *again* for the transfer from you to your Dad. Not without Dad having his own permit to purchase. And, if Dad has a P2P, there's no need to transfer through an FFL - perfectly legal to transfer face-to-face
Or, Option 2: you could buy it and leave it at the FFL, put a picture in a card, give your dad the card and then take him to the FFL on the 26th and only pay the NICS and transfer fees once.Most FFLs won't want to do this... too close to a straw purchase (person purchasing the firearm isn't the one that it's transferred to)
Or, Option 3 (if you are buying NJ retail): Take your dad to the gun store and pay for in his name.Again, another straw purchase
The only legal way to do this, satisfying both NJ and federal laws, is for the OP to purchase and receive the firearm. He can answer "yes" to the 4473 question, "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm", because he intends to give it as a gift. Then, he transfers the pistol to his Dad, by filling out section A (or is it B? I forget) of the permit to purcahse - the one involving private transfers.
Sorry for the confusion. I presumed that valid PTPPs were in play for all options. I was too brief. I ment the transfer from OP to his dad would occur with a FFL. Did not know that FTF was OK for pistols.
Options 2 and 3 are NOT a straw purchases. A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone who you know could not purchase it legally. Dad has PTPP, Dad submits to and passes NICS, Dad is receiving the pistol. No straw purchase. The law does not care who lays the cash on the counter.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf page 166
Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_purchase
A straw purchase is any purchase wherein the purchaser knowingly acquires an item or service for someone who is, for whatever reason, unable to purchase the item or service themselves.
...However, purchase of a firearm as a bona fide gift for someone who can legally own such a firearm is permitted.
...However, purchase of a firearm as a bona fide gift for someone who can legally own such a firearm is permitted.
12/12/2011 9:42:44 PM
No reason why you cannot just pay for the pistol or purchase a gift card in the amount for the pistol and have dad use a pistol permit to pick it up at the store. It is not a straw purchase because dad is picking it up for himself. If you explain that to the staff at the store there is no reason to be declined. It really seems like a waste to get a permit for yourself just to have the gun out of the store a little sooner. Talk to your store, I bet they will find a way separate you from your money.
12/12/2011 10:14:39 PM
Originally Posted By dontalo:
A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone who you know could not purchase it legally.
A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone who you know could not purchase it legally.
Nope. A straw purchase is any transfer where the transferee can not honestly answer "yes" to the 4473 question, "are you the actual buyer of the firearm?"
If I buy a firearm, with my money, and I intend to give it to you as a gift, I can answer honestly that "yes, I am the actual buyer of the firearm", and this would be legal. But - if you gave me money, and said, "get me that firearm", then I would be committing a straw purchase. It doesn't matter that you're legally able to possess the firearm... I'm not the actual buyer of the firearm, because I'm buying it for you. It may not seem any different to you, but I assure you, the ATF would feel differently.
Look at a 4473 form sometime, and find this portion:
WARNING-The Federal firearms laws require that the individual filling out this form must be buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift. Any individual who is not buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift, but who completes this form, violates the law. Example: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out the form, he will violate the law. However, if Mr. Jones buys a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones may lawfully complete this form. A licensee who knowingly delivers a firearm to an individual who is not buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift violates the law by maintaining a false ATF Form 4473.
Note that it says nothing about Mr. Smith being eligible to possess or not eligible.
12/13/2011 12:04:09 AM
Thanks guys. Everyone's answer seems to be what I thought. I could waste one of my permits and pay the fees twice, but it be easier to just have him go pick it up with own permit.
I was just hoping there was a way to transfer handguns in NJ that I didn't know about.
I was just hoping there was a way to transfer handguns in NJ that I didn't know about.
12/13/2011 12:52:00 AM
You guys are brutal today. 
I don’t want to nit-pick over a straw purchase being a specific instance of a broader crime of falsifying ATF Form 4473. My point was that I never proposed the OP act as a straw purchaser or in any other way falsify ATF Form 4473.
RE Option 1: I am sorry that I erroneously wasted $45 with the proposed return trip to the FFL. I learn something new every day, would have bet the house yesterday that all pistol transfers required a FFL. I did not mention the PTPP because it was second nature for me to presume that any pistol transfer involving a FFL implies a PTPP.
RE Options 2/3: OP never completes a Form 4473, so how can there be a straw purchase. The gift card recommendation is much cleaner, but the same same.
Was I unclear, certainly yes (sorry). Illegal, no. Next time, I’ll be more careful to put my glasses on and proof read before hitting the submit button.
I don’t want to nit-pick over a straw purchase being a specific instance of a broader crime of falsifying ATF Form 4473. My point was that I never proposed the OP act as a straw purchaser or in any other way falsify ATF Form 4473.
RE Option 1: I am sorry that I erroneously wasted $45 with the proposed return trip to the FFL. I learn something new every day, would have bet the house yesterday that all pistol transfers required a FFL. I did not mention the PTPP because it was second nature for me to presume that any pistol transfer involving a FFL implies a PTPP.
RE Options 2/3: OP never completes a Form 4473, so how can there be a straw purchase. The gift card recommendation is much cleaner, but the same same.
Was I unclear, certainly yes (sorry). Illegal, no. Next time, I’ll be more careful to put my glasses on and proof read before hitting the submit button.
12/13/2011 2:25:43 PM
DONT DO IT!!!!
12/13/2011 4:10:01 PM
Originally Posted By FlamFlamMann:
Thanks guys. Everyone's answer seems to be what I thought. I could waste one of my permits and pay the fees twice, but it be easier to just have him go pick it up with own permit.
I was just hoping there was a way to transfer handguns in NJ that I didn't know about.
Thanks guys. Everyone's answer seems to be what I thought. I could waste one of my permits and pay the fees twice, but it be easier to just have him go pick it up with own permit.
I was just hoping there was a way to transfer handguns in NJ that I didn't know about.
Give him a card with the piece pictured, and $$$ for the other costs that need to be covered. He'll be surprised.
12/14/2011 5:52:19 PM
Originally Posted By FlamFlamMann:
Thanks guys. Everyone's answer seems to be what I thought. I could waste one of my permits and pay the fees twice, but it be easier to just have him go pick it up with own permit.
I was just hoping there was a way to transfer handguns in NJ that I didn't know about.
Thanks guys. Everyone's answer seems to be what I thought. I could waste one of my permits and pay the fees twice, but it be easier to just have him go pick it up with own permit.
I was just hoping there was a way to transfer handguns in NJ that I didn't know about.
There are no fees to pay twice, there is NO ISSUE with a FTF transfer of a handgun as long as your dad has his P2P You can "Give" it to him for Christmas, you just can't "Transfer" it to him until he has his P2p
