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Vehicile Tactics & some general thoughts
8/31/2009 9:16:47 AM
Today I attended a Vehicle Tactics Course on by Bob Derosiers from Argive Defense System. I was there to kind of hang out, be a safety at times, chime in, and be the bad guy for several scenarios.
There were no “new” shooters in the class. Everyone had previous training and was range safe. With 10 students in the class, we had age’s ranging from a 20 yr old with several attendees in their late 50’s. Many were prior military and a few had shot some IPSC and IDPA.
Without getting into the specifics of the course here are some observations that I see over and over in firearms courses, especially during FOF training. We had airsofts for the good guys and props for the bad guys including airsofts, clubs, knives and box cutters.
Students habitually walk right by or totally dismiss people with visible weapons in their hands like clubs and knives.
If the student draws down on a attacker and things become static he usually begins to give verbal commands that are common to police such ask get down, cross you feet etc. While giving commands no students retreated to a better position of cover even when it was steps away.
Once students get both hands on their gun they become glued there even if they are being attacked with a club or a knife. Not one student released his weak hand to defend himself. This at best promotes a mutual slaying.
When both hands are glued to the gun the students only move straight back or straight forward.
During the entire day, not one headshot was counted. The majority of rounds struck the hand/arm holding the weapon, and COM.
During force on force no students reported closing one eye or contemplating which eye to shoot with.
Using a t-shirts for a concealment garment is likely to end up in a fouled draw, especially if you need to draws one handed.
You cannot open your door, pop your seatbelt, clear the seatbelt, get out of the car and draw you pistol in one move. At combat speed there is a very high screw up rate doing this drill.
Shooters are good about not getting their gun caught up the seatbelt but usually end up getting the seatbelt caught on reaction side gear like cell phones, magazines and lights. They get about a foot away from the car and then yanked back in by the belt.
Once students encounter and initial threat they sometimes scan left and right but seldom to the rear, once they verbally engage the threat the disregard the rear. I was able to walk up and execute two students while my partner was breaking in their car. This was in broad daylight.
Just some thoughts that I hope provoke a discussion.
There were no “new” shooters in the class. Everyone had previous training and was range safe. With 10 students in the class, we had age’s ranging from a 20 yr old with several attendees in their late 50’s. Many were prior military and a few had shot some IPSC and IDPA.
Without getting into the specifics of the course here are some observations that I see over and over in firearms courses, especially during FOF training. We had airsofts for the good guys and props for the bad guys including airsofts, clubs, knives and box cutters.
Students habitually walk right by or totally dismiss people with visible weapons in their hands like clubs and knives.
If the student draws down on a attacker and things become static he usually begins to give verbal commands that are common to police such ask get down, cross you feet etc. While giving commands no students retreated to a better position of cover even when it was steps away.
Once students get both hands on their gun they become glued there even if they are being attacked with a club or a knife. Not one student released his weak hand to defend himself. This at best promotes a mutual slaying.
When both hands are glued to the gun the students only move straight back or straight forward.
During the entire day, not one headshot was counted. The majority of rounds struck the hand/arm holding the weapon, and COM.
During force on force no students reported closing one eye or contemplating which eye to shoot with.
Using a t-shirts for a concealment garment is likely to end up in a fouled draw, especially if you need to draws one handed.
You cannot open your door, pop your seatbelt, clear the seatbelt, get out of the car and draw you pistol in one move. At combat speed there is a very high screw up rate doing this drill.
Shooters are good about not getting their gun caught up the seatbelt but usually end up getting the seatbelt caught on reaction side gear like cell phones, magazines and lights. They get about a foot away from the car and then yanked back in by the belt.
Once students encounter and initial threat they sometimes scan left and right but seldom to the rear, once they verbally engage the threat the disregard the rear. I was able to walk up and execute two students while my partner was breaking in their car. This was in broad daylight.
Just some thoughts that I hope provoke a discussion.
9/1/2009 10:01:46 PM
You are sitting in bumper to bumper traffic, you cell phone rings next to you in the seat, you glace down and...bang, you just bumped in the the car in front of you, it is hot and you can hear the driver curse as he smashes his hands on the steering wheel. All of a sudden he opens the door and begins to advance towards you.
He continues to advance and brandishes a knife saying he is "going to teach you a lesson" You are blocked on all four sides with no where to go, you are armed. Are you alone? (This shooter draws and fires rounds from inside his vehicle, the bad guy reacts to the COM rounds, some hit his chest, others his hands and arms because they are COM)
A student engages a target out his drivers side window, after first engaging the first target at his door. He is using Center Axis Relock.
Took me about 45 seconds to cut this neat patch of glass out of the vehicle using my RMJ Tactical Shrike Tomahawk. Injured occupants do not need glass in their eyes and wounds if he can be avoided. What other tool a first responder could carry and use by himself would provide this precision. The tomahawk is not just for fighting anymore.
He continues to advance and brandishes a knife saying he is "going to teach you a lesson" You are blocked on all four sides with no where to go, you are armed. Are you alone? (This shooter draws and fires rounds from inside his vehicle, the bad guy reacts to the COM rounds, some hit his chest, others his hands and arms because they are COM)
A student engages a target out his drivers side window, after first engaging the first target at his door. He is using Center Axis Relock.
Took me about 45 seconds to cut this neat patch of glass out of the vehicle using my RMJ Tactical Shrike Tomahawk. Injured occupants do not need glass in their eyes and wounds if he can be avoided. What other tool a first responder could carry and use by himself would provide this precision. The tomahawk is not just for fighting anymore.
12/11/2009 9:17:57 PM
I'm new to this site and I'm interested in training like this. What was the class size? How long was the class? How much does this cost? I like the idea of the Airsoft arms and "live" bad guys. I want the tactical training to "get my mind right". My son and daughter might be interested also.
Nathan
Nathan
12/12/2009 8:50:07 PM
I was able to find the website for http://www.argivedefense.com and get most of the info I was looking for.
Nathan
Nathan
1/6/2010 9:44:30 PM
Nice C.A.R. technique. I just took the course and really like it. It's a perfect skill to use while strapped in car (no pun intended).
