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RedTx
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Posted: 12/3/2008 8:35:50 AM
I have a 6.5 grendel and really like it. I have read a little bit about dtech's 25 wssm and was wondering if anyone had any experience with them and if so how would say they would compare to the grendel at 600+ yards?
Cold
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Posted: 12/3/2008 8:46:23 AM
[Last Edit: 12/3/2008 8:46:54 AM by Cold]
Originally Posted By RedTx:
I have a 6.5 grendel and really like it. I have read a little bit about dtech's 25 wssm and was wondering if anyone had any experience with them and if so how would say they would compare to the grendel at 600+ yards?


Have you shot your 6.5 G at 600? Just curious... how it groups. I have shot a 243 WSSM at 400 and was not super impressed to be honest, I cannot imagine the 25 to be that much or substantially better.
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RedTx
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Posted: 12/3/2008 8:55:20 AM
[Last Edit: 12/3/2008 8:56:46 AM by RedTx]
Nope I havent shot the Grendel past 300. I dont even know why even talk about shooting past 300 yards as I am more of hunter than anything else. I like to think im a long range shooter even though im not

The grendel however was shooting a little below MOA at 300 yards.
tammons
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Posted: 12/3/2008 9:18:57 AM
I had an oly 25 wssm upper and it is heavy.

IMO better suited as a varmint rig, to sit and wait.

Dtech might be able to build a lightweight barrel though.

As far as 1000 yards, if you have the barrel throated to hang the bullets out farther, shoot single shot style, and shoot bergers the 25 wssm should get close to the mainstream 1000 yard cartridges. It will beat the grendel. You just cant get enough powder in the grendel case to get the speed up.

For 300 yard hunting, I like the 6.8
Cold
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Posted: 12/3/2008 9:20:26 AM
[Last Edit: 12/3/2008 9:28:07 AM by Cold]
Originally Posted By RedTx:
Nope I havent shot the Grendel past 300. I dont even know why even talk about shooting past 300 yards as I am more of hunter than anything else. I like to think im a long range shooter even though im not

The grendel however was shooting a little below MOA at 300 yards.


Let me see if I have this correct...
In your first post/question you stated, "was wondering if anyone had any experience with them and if so how would say they would compare to the grendel at 600+ yards?"

So that is what lead me to ask if you have ever shot yours out to 600, and now you say " I dont even know why even talk about shooting past 300 yards..."?

I'm confused as to what your asking. You don't expect to shoot past 300 but want opinions from those with 6.5G/25 WSSM who do shoot at 600 despite admission you won't??

Fact is at 300 both do a dandy job, hopefully someone will understand this clearer then I and can assist...
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timb3
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Posted: 12/3/2008 11:17:12 AM
Originally Posted By Cold:
I'm confused as to what your asking. You don't expect to shoot past 300 but want opinions from those with 6.5G/25 WSSM who do shoot at 600 despite admission you won't??


That sounds like what he's asking. Sounds like a reasonable question to me. I don't see why "admitting" that he doesn't plan to do it himself has anything to do with things. Maybe he just wants to know for academic reasons or simple curiosity. Nothing wrong with that.
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Cold
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Posted: 12/3/2008 11:56:50 AM
[Last Edit: 12/3/2008 12:01:57 PM by Cold]
Originally Posted By timb3:
Originally Posted By Cold:
I'm confused as to what your asking. You don't expect to shoot past 300 but want opinions from those with 6.5G/25 WSSM who do shoot at 600 despite admission you won't??


That sounds like what he's asking. Sounds like a reasonable question to me. I don't see why "admitting" that he doesn't plan to do it himself has anything to do with things. Maybe he just wants to know for academic reasons or simple curiosity. Nothing wrong with that.


Never said there was or is anything wrong with the question, your making your own inferences there . Just trying to clear it up for myself and anyone else who was in the same confusion as I...
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RedTx
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Posted: 12/3/2008 12:36:52 PM
Im curious about long range shooting. I dont actually shoot long range. I have a grendel that is suppose to be great at long range although I dont shoot it for that purpose but like that it has that ability.

I was wondering if 25 wssm had the same ability as the Grendel or if it was in a league of its own. Just curious as all nothing more


Once again I am not a long range shooter and no nothing about it beside what I read, just a curious bystander here. Sorry to confuse anyone.


Why you hacking on me Cold?
cav_scout_tj
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Posted: 12/3/2008 6:33:21 PM
[Last Edit: 12/3/2008 7:28:19 PM by cav_scout_tj]
I see this as more of a discussion about bullet selection. For long range high BC target bullets, the 6.5 wins–– much better selection.

The WSSM should give more velocity though.

Now mathematically, the higher BC bullet will always beat the lower BC bullet–– eventually. The larger the velocity differential between low and high BC bullets the longer it takes for high to win ballistically.

Winchester quotes 3060fps for their 115grain load. Thats with the CT bullet with a .453 BC.

Lets compare that to the AlexArms 123 gr Lapua load which is claimed at 2405fps and a .547 BC.

Thats a BIG 600 fps velocity difference (~25%), and almost about a tenth of BC diff –– ~20%.

At 600yards, thats -144" total drop for the 6.5, and -91" for the WSSM load. Thats like 37% less drop, which is significantly better. Now even if you say that the 3060 velocity is an 'optimistic' number from a 26" bolt action, the WSSM still wins by 3" less drop if it was going only 2500fps!

But really this a more of an apples and oranges thing, the WSSM is very specialized, uses a special mag, and you only get like 7 rounds, and is a barrel burner.

So that part is subjective. Looking at just the math, WSSM wins easily.






bushwack
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Posted: 12/3/2008 11:45:49 PM
Dtech can & will build you a 6.5/243 WSSM, it will easily do 600yds & further. I'm not sure if he can provide it with an extended gas tube to take advantage of a 26" barrel though.
Rothamber
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Posted: 12/4/2008 4:26:17 PM
The 25 WSSM was designed to essentially duplicate the 25-06 in a compact package. I have a 25 WSSM from DTech with 23" Shilen barrel that I'll be using for some deer hunting in the next week or two. I haven't done any formal benchrest testing but I've been pleased with its function and (offhand) accuracy so far.

One thing worth noting is that none of the four commercial rounds for 25 WSSM fit into a mag without setting the bullets back a bit. Not an issue if you handload, but important to keep in mind that you can't just grab a box of ammo on the way to the range. As someone mentioned above this should be considered a specialized round...

As an aside, DTech has been wildcatting the WSSM cases all the way up to .458 I believe. I like playing with different cartridge possibilities in an AR, but I'm not sure I'm ready to take that on yet.
Gunwritr
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Posted: 12/5/2008 12:40:05 AM
Originally Posted By cav_scout_tj:
I see this as more of a discussion about bullet selection. For long range high BC target bullets, the 6.5 wins–– much better selection.

The WSSM should give more velocity though.

Now mathematically, the higher BC bullet will always beat the lower BC bullet–– eventually. The larger the velocity differential between low and high BC bullets the longer it takes for high to win ballistically.

Winchester quotes 3060fps for their 115grain load. Thats with the CT bullet with a .453 BC.

Lets compare that to the AlexArms 123 gr Lapua load which is claimed at 2405fps and a .547 BC.

Thats a BIG 600 fps velocity difference (~25%), and almost about a tenth of BC diff –– ~20%.

At 600yards, thats -144" total drop for the 6.5, and -91" for the WSSM load. Thats like 37% less drop, which is significantly better. Now even if you say that the 3060 velocity is an 'optimistic' number from a 26" bolt action, the WSSM still wins by 3" less drop if it was going only 2500fps!

But really this a more of an apples and oranges thing, the WSSM is very specialized, uses a special mag, and you only get like 7 rounds, and is a barrel burner.

So that part is subjective. Looking at just the math, WSSM wins easily.








The .25 WSSM has a lot more oomph than the Grendel. I mean, just look at the case capacity! With the proper bullet, it should do fairly well at distance. I have taken 4 deer with one, and shot it out to 500 yards. This was when they first released it. Accuracy was good, but I was not real impressed by the performance of the factory loads on deer. Yes, it killed them, but they all tended to take off like the devil himself was after them upon being hit. They'd run straight out for 100 yards or so and pile up in a heap. Hardly any blood, and it would take a bit to find them.

As a sidenote, the quoted AA 123 grain velocity is too low. Even for a 14.5 inch gun that figure is low. Even so, the Grendel is no magnum.
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Redass
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Posted: 12/5/2008 8:52:04 AM
Originally Posted By cav_scout_tj:
I see this as more of a discussion about bullet selection. For long range high BC target bullets, the 6.5 wins–– much better selection.

The WSSM should give more velocity though.

Now mathematically, the higher BC bullet will always beat the lower BC bullet–– eventually. The larger the velocity differential between low and high BC bullets the longer it takes for high to win ballistically.

Winchester quotes 3060fps for their 115grain load. Thats with the CT bullet with a .453 BC.

Lets compare that to the AlexArms 123 gr Lapua load which is claimed at 2405fps and a .547 BC.

Thats a BIG 600 fps velocity difference (~25%), and almost about a tenth of BC diff –– ~20%.

At 600yards, thats -144" total drop for the 6.5, and -91" for the WSSM load. Thats like 37% less drop, which is significantly better. Now even if you say that the 3060 velocity is an 'optimistic' number from a 26" bolt action, the WSSM still wins by 3" less drop if it was going only 2500fps!

But really this a more of an apples and oranges thing, the WSSM is very specialized, uses a special mag, and you only get like 7 rounds, and is a barrel burner.

So that part is subjective. Looking at just the math, WSSM wins easily.








With that particular bullet and at that velocity the 25 outperforms the Grendel no doubt. I dig the efficiency of the Grendel though. Out of a 19.5" barreled AR with the 123 Scenar I'm getting 2585 fps burning 30.2 grains of powder. The ballistic program says drop at 600 is 96", and it stays supersonic to 1200 yds. I think that is pretty dang good out of that little rifle.
RedTx
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Posted: 12/5/2008 9:44:07 AM
Originally Posted By Redass:
Originally Posted By cav_scout_tj:
I see this as more of a discussion about bullet selection. For long range high BC target bullets, the 6.5 wins–– much better selection.

The WSSM should give more velocity though.

Now mathematically, the higher BC bullet will always beat the lower BC bullet–– eventually. The larger the velocity differential between low and high BC bullets the longer it takes for high to win ballistically.

Winchester quotes 3060fps for their 115grain load. Thats with the CT bullet with a .453 BC.

Lets compare that to the AlexArms 123 gr Lapua load which is claimed at 2405fps and a .547 BC.

Thats a BIG 600 fps velocity difference (~25%), and almost about a tenth of BC diff –– ~20%.

At 600yards, thats -144" total drop for the 6.5, and -91" for the WSSM load. Thats like 37% less drop, which is significantly better. Now even if you say that the 3060 velocity is an 'optimistic' number from a 26" bolt action, the WSSM still wins by 3" less drop if it was going only 2500fps!

But really this a more of an apples and oranges thing, the WSSM is very specialized, uses a special mag, and you only get like 7 rounds, and is a barrel burner.

So that part is subjective. Looking at just the math, WSSM wins easily.








With that particular bullet and at that velocity the 25 outperforms the Grendel no doubt. I dig the efficiency of the Grendel though. Out of a 19.5" barreled AR with the 123 Scenar I'm getting 2585 fps burning 30.2 grains of powder. The ballistic program says drop at 600 is 96", and it stays supersonic to 1200 yds. I think that is pretty dang good out of that little rifle.


Hey do you mind if I ask what kind of powder you are using?