Site Notices
8/29/2014 9:08:28 PM
Page:  / 14
Author
Message
LRRPF52
Member
Offline
Posts: 1527
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 2:49:15 PM
Loading longer .277 bullets will never get you on-par with 6.5's if high BC and heavier weight is what you seek. I leanred that the hard way with my .270 Winchester trying to compete with my .260 Rem. Even with 15-20gr more powder in the Winchester launching Berger 140gr VLD's, I need 250fps more muzzle velocity to match the .260 Rem with 140gr Berger VLD's, and the .260 Rem still beats the .277 for wind deflection at 1000yds. I thought the significantly higher mv from the .270 would smoke the .260....nope.

If we're talking about the best military intermediate rifle cartridge, 5.56 NATO wins.

If we're talking about best intermediate AR15 cartidge for civilians and hunting, as well as recreational target shooting, the Grendel is the clear winner. It can do what the .25-223, 6x45, 6.8 SPC, and 7.62x39 can do, and bites the heels quite firmly of the 6.5x55 Swede.

QuicksilverJPR
Multi-Caliber!
Offline
Posts: 6513
Feedback: 100% (5)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 2:52:27 PM
[Last Edit: 4/10/2012 2:52:42 PM by QuicksilverJPR]
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
Loading longer .277 bullets will never get you on-par with 6.5's if high BC and heavier weight is what you seek. I leanred that the hard way with my .270 Winchester trying to compete with my .260 Rem. Even with 15-20gr more powder in the Winchester launching Berger 140gr VLD's, I need 250fps more muzzle velocity to match the .260 Rem with 140gr Berger VLD's, and the .260 Rem still beats the .277 for wind deflection at 1000yds. I thought the significantly higher mv from the .270 would smoke the .260....nope.

If we're talking about the best military intermediate rifle cartridge, 5.56 NATO wins.

If we're talking about best intermediate AR15 cartidge for civilians and hunting, as well as recreational target shooting, the Grendel is the clear winner. It can do what the .25-223, 6x45, 6.8 SPC, and 7.62x39 can do, and bites the heels quite firmly of the 6.5x55 Swede.



Define "clear winner" please with actual scientific facts and load data (please).
GACKER1143
Offline
Posts: 116
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 2:53:42 PM
sywagon
BC dosen't really matter in the 0-300m range. Thats more for longer distances. And a 300 Win mag kicks the crap out of you for those 300 extra fps and doesn't kill any better then a '06. Been shooting an '06 for many years and I'll bet it kills just as good as any Magnum. I know it's been killing everything I've shot very well 95% of the time DRT! Not even a twitch! This one of the reasons I went with the 300 blk- just somethiong about the .308 caliber -it stops stuff right now- DRT! Same with my 30-30's drops stuff DRT! Maybe I just a .308 caliber whore!
sywagon
Online
Posts: 21
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 3:31:26 PM
[Last Edit: 4/10/2012 4:06:49 PM by sywagon]
Originally Posted By GACKER1143:
sywagon
BC dosen't really matter in the 0-300m range. Thats more for longer distances. And a 300 Win mag kicks the crap out of you for those 300 extra fps and doesn't kill any better then a '06. Been shooting an '06 for many years and I'll bet it kills just as good as any Magnum. I know it's been killing everything I've shot very well 95% of the time DRT! Not even a twitch! This one of the reasons I went with the 300 blk- just somethiong about the .308 caliber -it stops stuff right now- DRT! Same with my 30-30's drops stuff DRT! Maybe I just a .308 caliber whore!


I think we both agree more than you are seeing, and that is the main thing. Our common ground is if it works for you doing what you want to, then it is perfect. And yes, out past 300yd. is where a 6.5 or 300mag comes into it's own for most things.

BC does matter somewhat though even at short range - I thought that is why they came out with the FTX for 30-30? I thought 30-30 was a 200 yard round in most people's opinion prior to those. It has more to do with more drop = more need for accurate range estimation and hold over than anything else for medium size targets. Yes there are people with extensive experience who can ethically push it farther. My 1892 is .44 mag (20" 240 gr 1900fps for win white box) - it is a fantastic round, and very practical. It is not a distance round. It isn't a Grendel. It will make a very stout hole in stuff out to 150yrds though before dropping like a stone. I load both 30-06 level and full house both for my .300mag. Shooting a med. deer with .300mag is DRT and a bunch of wasted meet. The difference between 30-06 to .300mag is quite near going from 30-30 to .308. Get up on a grizzly that is surprised and I know which I would take. That is when you are really banking on the fact that E=MV^2

Edit - for reference energy in Ft/Lb (for .300 BLK and 6.5 these are just based on the previous post and aren't supposed to represent some gold standard).
.300BLK 1343
6.5 Grendel 1735
30-30 1875
.44Mag rifle 1924
0.308 2675
30-06 3082
.300Mag 3752

Also I apologize that several of these are not intermediate rounds. They serve for comparison only.
LRRPF52
Member
Offline
Posts: 1528
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 4:09:38 PM
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
Loading longer .277 bullets will never get you on-par with 6.5's if high BC and heavier weight is what you seek. I leanred that the hard way with my .270 Winchester trying to compete with my .260 Rem. Even with 15-20gr more powder in the Winchester launching Berger 140gr VLD's, I need 250fps more muzzle velocity to match the .260 Rem with 140gr Berger VLD's, and the .260 Rem still beats the .277 for wind deflection at 1000yds. I thought the significantly higher mv from the .270 would smoke the .260....nope.

If we're talking about the best military intermediate rifle cartridge, 5.56 NATO wins.

If we're talking about best intermediate AR15 cartidge for civilians and hunting, as well as recreational target shooting, the Grendel is the clear winner. It can do what the .25-223, 6x45, 6.8 SPC, and 7.62x39 can do, and bites the heels quite firmly of the 6.5x55 Swede.



Define "clear winner" please with actual scientific facts and load data (please).


I've run ballistic comparisons several times in the variants forum. I actually believed a lot of the statements about Grendel short barrels not being able to keep up with 6.8 until I chrono'd my 16", and ran the comparisions through a program. Right now, I'm getting 24" Grendel velocities out of factory ammunition in my 16" Grendel, namely the Precision Firearms 123gr Lapua Moly Scenar load at 2550fps, with zero pressure signs. I have also loaded the 100gr Nosler Ballistic Tip to over 2700fps from my 16", but I've learned to look at the drop, energy, and wind drift data along with the sectional density of the bullet more importantly than muzzle velocity.

The clarity in the Grendel's ability to cover this broad spectrum of bullet weights for varmint, medium game, large game, and target shooting is evident in its performance so far. There are untold numbers of people getting DRT results on Coyotes, wild hogs, deer, mule deer, Oryx, Elk, Sheep, Antelope, and Alligators. Many target guns shoot into the .3 MOA and even the teens, with low extreme spreads.

When you look at retained energy, the 6.5's are the bullet to beat out of any small action. You have to step up to a 7mm Mag cartridge to beat the 6.5's. If you take same case capacities, and try to beat the 6.5, it's a losing endeavor.

I respectfully diagree with the statement that BC doesn't matter within the first 300yds. For every reason that a high sectional density bullet passes through the air so well, they also pass through tissue well. This is why a 110gr 6.5mm Barnes will beat a 110gr .277 or .300 bullet from the same manufacture and construction, when it comes to penetration, even though the majority of hunters won't see this when shooting ligh-skinned medium game where the penetration advantage can't be realized. As the game size increases, and the hide thickens, the 6.5mm projectiles start to make more sense, especially within 300yds where most shots will take place.

Another area where BC comes into play is with your wind drift. Let's say you're lining up a shot for a deer at 250yds. With a 10mph steady crosswind, you decide to use a reticle hold, since you are within trajectory with your point blank zero. Almost every comparison I have run with 16" carbines, one in 6.5 G and one in 6.8 SPC leaves the SPC with at least 2" more of drift at that range, even starting out at the muzzle 150fps faster. Based on my hold, that extra 2" could mean the difference between a heart-lung shot, and a frontal lung or gut shot depedning on animal orientation.

Also note the energy and velocity at 250yds for both cartridges. If you compare the 6.5mm 120gr NBT to the 6.8mm 110 Partition, they are one of the closest matches I can find, as long as the 6.8 pushes the 110 Partition at 2650fps or faster, with the Grendel only at 2500fps. Both are using a 200yd zero, which is generally accepted as a great hunting Point Blank Zero.

6.5 Grendel, 120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, 2500fps, 2.7" scope height, 200yd zero, sea level

.......Range    Velocity    Energy     Trajectory         TOF          Drift

(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (inches) (sec) (inches)
0 2500 1665 -2.70 0.0000 0.00
25 2452 1602 -0.99 0.0303 -0.05
50 2405 1541 0.36 0.0612 -0.21
75 2358 1481 1.33 0.0927 -0.47
100 2311 1423 1.91 0.1248 -0.85
125 2265 1367 2.09 0.1576 -1.34
150 2220 1313 1.84 0.1910 -1.95
175 2175 1261 1.15 0.2251 -2.67
200 2131 1210 0.00 0.2600 -3.53
225 2087 1161 -1.63 0.2955 -4.51
250 2044 1113 -3.75 0.3318 -5.62
275 2001 1067 -6.40 0.3689 -6.87
300 1959 1022 -9.58 0.4068 -8.25
325 1917 979 -13.34 0.4455 -9.79
350 1876 938 -17.68 0.4850 -11.47
375 1836 898 -22.64 0.5254 -13.30
400 1796 859 -28.25 0.5668 -15.29



6.8 SPC II, 110gr Nosler Partition, 2650fps, 2.7" scope height, 200yd zero, sea level

.......Range    Velocity    Energy     Trajectory         TOF          Drift

(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (inches) (sec) (inches)
0 2650 1715 -2.70 0.0000 0.00
25 2589 1637 -1.11 0.0286 -0.06
50 2528 1561 0.16 0.0580 -0.24
75 2468 1488 1.08 0.0880 -0.54
100 2409 1418 1.65 0.1187 -0.98
125 2351 1350 1.85 0.1502 -1.54
150 2294 1285 1.65 0.1825 -2.25
175 2238 1223 1.04 0.2156 -3.09
200 2182 1163 -0.00 0.2496 -4.09
225 2127 1105 -1.50 0.2844 -5.23
250 2073 1050 -3.48 0.3201 -6.54
275 2020 996 -5.97 0.3567 -8.01
300 1967 945 -8.98 0.3944 -9.65
325 1916 896 -12.56 0.4330 -11.47
350 1865 849 -16.73 0.4727 -13.48
375 1815 805 -21.53 0.5134 -15.67
400 1766 762 -26.99 0.5553 -18.06


As you can see, they are very close. Granted, the partitions are meant for heavier game, and I didn't compare the 125gr Partition available for the Grendel, which can be run at the same velocity as the 120gr NBT. Most 6.8 loads are either 110gr, but there is a new Hornady 120gr SST with a BC of .400, with Hornady listing a muzzle velocity of 2460fps, which I'm sure could be increased somewhat. But when you take a bullet with a BC of .4 in the 120gr range at the same velocity as another with a .458 BC, the narrower .458 BC projectile will retain more energy, and penetrate deeper into tissue. The edge is slight, but it's real, and any edge I can get in retained energy and wind drift I will take.

Combined with ability to launch 85gr bullets at 2900fps+, or 130gr high-BC bullets in the high .5's like the Berger 130gr and Swift Scirrocco 130 (.571 BC), the Grendel is truly and demonstrably the more capable cartridge when it comes to versatility across the application spectrum. The others demonstrate a niche performance, while the Grendel can step into the shoes of all the intermediate cartridges and go toe-to-toe, even out of short barrels.
stanc
Offline
Posts: 436
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 4:32:14 PM
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
Loading longer .277 bullets will never get you on-par with 6.5's if high BC and heavier weight is what you seek.

That may be true, but loading long, streamlined bullets does enable one to maximize the potential of 6.8 SPC.
If we're talking about the best military intermediate rifle cartridge, 5.56 NATO wins.

There's no denying the advantages of that round, but I'd be more inclined to say 5.45x39 wins.

5.56 is to 5.45 as 6.8 is to 6.5 –– 5.56 and 6.8 load short, stubby bullets @ higher MV, while 5.45 and 6.5 have long, streamlined bullets @ slightly lower MV.
If we're talking about best intermediate AR15 cartidge for civilians and hunting, as well as recreational target shooting, the Grendel is the clear winner.

The poll seems to disagree.
Tim_W
Offline
Posts: 1248
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 4:32:37 PM
Originally Posted By GACKER1143:
sywagon
BC dosen't really matter in the 0-300m range. Thats more for longer distances. And a 300 Win mag kicks the crap out of you for those 300 extra fps and doesn't kill any better then a '06. Been shooting an '06 for many years and I'll bet it kills just as good as any Magnum. I know it's been killing everything I've shot very well 95% of the time DRT! Not even a twitch! This one of the reasons I went with the 300 blk- just somethiong about the .308 caliber -it stops stuff right now- DRT! Same with my 30-30's drops stuff DRT! Maybe I just a .308 caliber whore!



BIG BIG difference in a 308 pushing a bullet at 2600+ and a 300blk pushing a lighter bullet at 2200-2300
There is the big and slow camp and the smaller faster camp. 30 years ago when I shot a 30-30 the 30-30 never dropped animals like the 6.8 does with much lighter and faster bullets.
Agree on one thing the BC does matter much from 0-300 if the bullet with the lesser BC starts out 200fps faster like the 6.8 and 6.5 comparison, they are very close out to 300yds.
LRRPF52
Member
Offline
Posts: 1529
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 4:52:07 PM
[Last Edit: 4/10/2012 4:54:06 PM by LRRPF52]
If the poll was used as a baseline, then .300 BLK should be an awesome intermediate cartridge, which it is not, and never was meant to be. The .30 caliber camp are the reason why the US has been handicapped in small arms cartridge selection, at least when it comes to 7.62 NATO. We literally screwed over NATO by adopting that chambering over the .280 Enfield, and we screwed ourselves over by canning the .276 Pedersen in the 1930's, since the original M1 Garand was smaller, had a 10rd clip loaded with .276 Ppedersen cartridges.

The mentality that has dominated the US military cartridge and chambering since...well even the late 1800's has been one of bigger=better, while ignoring higher efficiency projectiles. The 5.56 NATO story is an anomoly among this saga of bean counters and non gun guys making decisions waaaay above their mental capacity grade, even when considering the logistics chain aspect, since machineguns and rifles never had ammo issued in the same packaging anyway, and still don't.

That being said, a lot was done to make the 7.62x51 NATO an impressive cartridge in its own right, namely by using a boat tail FMJ bullet design to help retain energy, and using a high-pressure case run to maximum loading for high muzzle velocity.

Since 7.62 NATO is not an intermediate cartridge, and represents maximum pressure loads with a 40-47gr case capacity, a .30 cal built on a 27gr or less case capacity is going to suck ballistically within practical rifle engagement ranges in military settings.
Operator42
Offline
Posts: 33
Feedback: 100% (18)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 5:26:15 PM
LLRP

I use the 6.8 for hunting and I'm a happy camper. The 85 TSX an 95 TTSX represent great bullets for the 6.8, and the 95 TTSX has a Taylor made expansion envelope for the 6.8.

The 6.5 110 Barnes bullet, do you know the lower expansion limit?
It?

Your charts rock btw

I've set my 6.8s up for hunting with 3x9 scopes. My Blackouts set up with dots will be for HD when I get and test the Blacktip ammo.

I have a 264 barrel coming ARP. It will wear a 20x scope, I don't know if I'll hunt with it, but it will shoot lots of rocks and steel.

264, 300 BLK, 6.8, all good intermediates for me, I'm glad Im not limited to just one rifle.
sywagon
Online
Posts: 22
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 5:53:15 PM
For long range the 6mm BR sounds promising with the 108 gr. berger at BC .556, if that can be turned out at the regular 2900 fps. I like 6mm being a fan of the .243....

I'm really not sure why the .243WSSM wouldn't be a candidate as well. That would run it up to 3100fps.

There are lots of nice 6mm bullets.

http://accurateshooter.net/pix/6mmlinex600.jpg

346ci
Offline
Posts: 972
Feedback: 100% (44)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 6:04:30 PM
[Last Edit: 4/10/2012 9:43:46 PM by Zhukov]
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
BIG BIG difference in a 308 pushing a bullet at 2600+ and a 300blk pushing a lighter bullet at 2200-2300

<Off-topic comment removed - Z>

The numbers just are not there, however, hype and marketing is. I'd consider the 300 if I were going to shoot subs suppressed and wanted a 8" barrel. Other than those specs, the 300 is a gimmick. Hell, a heavy 5.56 makes more sense. To each his own, spend your money as you please.
Gun-Nut
Offline
Posts: 20
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 6:14:25 PM
[Last Edit: 4/10/2012 7:11:04 PM by Gun-Nut]
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
If the poll was used as a baseline, then .300 BLK should be an awesome intermediate cartridge, which it is not, and never was meant to be.


What amazes me is all the armchair quarterbacking going on. If the 300 BLK is so lacking then you won't mind standing downrange when it goes off, will you?

However, the reality is 300 Whisper and 300 BLK were designed to put a 30 caliber bullet in a 5.56 case. It's that simple. Due to that simplicity, you get parts commonality with the AR-15/M-16/M-4 Stoner design on everything but the barrel.

It can do everything that 7.62x39 can, and no one wants to stand in front of that. Also, no one debates whether or not it's an intermediate cartridge, nor whether it can take game at reasonable distances..

"Best" is in the eyes of the beholder. As far as I'm concerned, and anyone with a decent amount of experience knows, there is no "best" for anything, only a compromise of what can be done based on the limitations of what you have. Know the advantages, know the limitations, then pick your poison.

This debate is meaningless, full of ignorance, and I even see what I can only describe by a couple of posters as an intentional desire to mislead people.

If you like a 30 caliber bullet in a 5.56 package, then you'll be happy with the Blackout. If the platform commonality and overwhelming OEM support starting to gush through the floodgates doesn't override the inherent limitations of the cartridge design, then you're not going to be happy with it.

It's that freaking simple. Move along. These are not the droids you are looking for.
GACKER1143
Offline
Posts: 117
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 7:09:29 PM
sywagon
I can agree with the bullets specifically made for the 30-30 it's pretty much a 200 yard round- but who said it can only be used with round nosed bullets? I've shot the Speer 130 HP out of mine- yes it limits you to two rounds- but load these and it becomes a good round out to 250 or better! I've got some 125 gr TNT's -never shot them before I got my 300 Blk but I think I;m going to give them a go in the 30-30 for shits and giggles! I'd love to find some good 120 gr soft points bt's!
I've shot some yotes with the 30-30 and the 130 HP they are a great round at that speed act just like most SP not explosive like they are at '06 speeds. So I expect the same results at the 300 Black speeds witch will make them a very good stopper ! Maybe I can get a muley to co-operate and step in front of one!
LRRPF52
Member
Offline
Posts: 1532
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 7:40:39 PM
[Last Edit: 4/10/2012 7:43:01 PM by LRRPF52]
Originally Posted By Gun-Nut:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
If the poll was used as a baseline, then .300 BLK should be an awesome intermediate cartridge, which it is not, and never was meant to be.


What amazes me is all the armchair quarterbacking going on. If the 300 BLK is so lacking then you won't mind standing downrange when it goes off, will you?However, the reality is 300 Whisper and 300 BLK were designed to put a 30 caliber bullet in a 5.56 case. It's that simple. Due to that simplicity, you get parts commonality with the AR-15/M-16/M-4 Stoner design on everything but the barrel.

It can do everything that 7.62x39 can, and no one wants to stand in front of that. Also, no one debates whether or not it's an intermediate cartridge, nor whether it can take game at reasonable distances..

"Best" is in the eyes of the beholder. As far as I'm concerned, and anyone with a decent amount of experience knows, there is no "best" for anything, only a compromise of what can be done based on the limitations of what you have. Know the advantages, know the limitations, then pick your poison.

This debate is meaningless, full of ignorance, and I even see what I can only describe by a couple of posters as an intentional desire to mislead people.

If you like a 30 caliber bullet in a 5.56 package, then you'll be happy with the Blackout. If the platform commonality and overwhelming OEM support starting to gush through the floodgates doesn't override the inherent limitations of the cartridge design, then you're not going to be happy with it.

It's that freaking simple. Move along. These are not the droids you are looking for.


That is what is called a straw man argument. I could also say, "You wouldn't want to stand in front of a .357 Magnum, .22 LR, 9mm, etc., would you!?" I personally don't want to stand in front of anyone's muzzle, as I've been shot and shot at more than I ever care to be ever again. It still doesn't make .300 BLK a viable intermediate cartridge because you don't want to make an apointment with one.

I could also load a Grendel with the 140gr and 160gr bullets and run them in the low 2000fps range, and they still will have more retained energy, less drop, and better terminal performance. I've always thought of the .300 Whisper as a great suppressed cartridge for the SBR AR15. There are far better supersonic cartridges designed as such, whereas the .300 was never intended to be a competitive intermediate rifle cartridge. Placing the .300 in the mix with modern cartidges that fit in the AR15 action and trying to compare it to them is like getting on your bike and racing with the short bus-it will be close, but I wouldn't mount the trophy for all to see.

If you enjoy taking game or plinking with them, shoot away without regret. Where I live, we deal with longer than average shooting distances, so it makes more sense for me to look at a caliber that has more reach to it. I shoot more 5.56 than anything through my carbines, and that will never change. I don't plan to load for so many chamberings that I become over-diversified, so 5.56, Grendel, & .260 Rem make a lot of sense for me. I'm wishing that my .270 Winchester Pre-64 was a .264 Win Mag, and not a .270 Win, but it is what it is, and I load for it occasionally.

trenttyre
Offline
Posts: 92
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 7:43:18 PM
Originally Posted By 346ci:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
BIG BIG difference in a 308 pushing a bullet at 2600+ and a 300blk pushing a lighter bullet at 2200-2300


That is what the 300wtf kuckleheads don't get. The numbers just are not there, however, hype and marketing is. I'd consider the 300 if I were going to shoot subs suppressed and wanted a 8" barrel. Other than those specs, the 300 is a gimmick. Hell, a heavy 5.56 makes more sense. To each his own, spend your money as you please.



300 BLK expands to 0.600 at 300 yards from a 9 inch barrel. And it penetrates 20 inches. That will stop a deer, hog, criminal, etc.

There is no denying it does the job at ranges that matter and beyond.




It has been used to win the nationals in 3-gun - while making Major power factor - so anyone who says it is not capable of power is damaging their own credibility. But since you are an anonymous internment poster, your reputation probably does not matter as you can just get a new screen name at any time.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... nationals/
LRRPF52
Member
Offline
Posts: 1533
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 7:57:26 PM
"Why is this cartidge a capable intermediate rifle cartridge?"

"Because someone won the 3-gun Nationals with it! We even have the ISPC cardboard targets to prove it!"

Correlation does not equal causation, especially here. What's the trajectory of a 110gr Barnes Vortex at 300yds out of a 9" barrel. What's the MV out of a 9" barrel?
stanc
Offline
Posts: 437
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 8:10:58 PM
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
If the poll was used as a baseline, then .300 BLK should be an awesome intermediate cartridge, which it is not, and never was meant to be.

Uh, did you miss the at the end of my sentence? Look, threads like this are nothing more than mental masturbation for gun nuts. Don't take it so seriously.
The .30 caliber camp are the reason why the US has been handicapped in small arms cartridge selection, at least when it comes to 7.62 NATO. We literally screwed over NATO by adopting that chambering over the .280 Enfield, and we screwed ourselves over by canning the .276 Pedersen in the 1930's, since the original M1 Garand was smaller, had a 10rd clip loaded with .276 Ppedersen cartridges.

The mentality that has dominated the US military cartridge and chambering since...well even the late 1800's has been one of bigger=better, while ignoring higher efficiency projectiles. The 5.56 NATO story is an anomoly among this saga of bean counters and non gun guys making decisions waaaay above their mental capacity grade, even when considering the logistics chain aspect, since machineguns and rifles never had ammo issued in the same packaging anyway, and still don't.

Okay, you're rather off topic, but I'm going to respond anyway.

a. Adopting 7.62x51 didn't really screw over NATO. The physical dimensions of the .280 British cartridge would have resulted in rifles and machine guns just as big and heavy as those for 7.62 NATO. Rifle magazine size and weight would likewise have been the same. Ammo weight would've been somewhat less with .280, and controllability somewhat better, but otherwise the British round has the same issues as 7.62x51.

b. Very little was lost by not adopting .276 Pedersen. The .276 T3E2 Garand was only 12 ounces lighter and 1.5 inches shorter than the .30 M1 Garand. As for clip capacities of 10-rd vs 8-rd, I don't see that as having any significant impact on combat effectiveness. In addition, if the .276 Garand had been adopted, the US would've entered WWII with a 3-caliber system: .30-06 machine guns, .276 rifles, and .30 M1 carbines. The Army has always opposed having three calibers.

c. It's just not true that the Army mentality has always been "bigger=better, while ignoring higher efficiency projectiles." They started off with .69 round balls in the late 1700s, then changed to .58 Minie balls in 1855, then reduced caliber to .50 in 1866, followed by .45 in 1873, and .30 in 1892. Army leadership recognized the advantages of reducing caliber and increasing velocity. They just weren't sure that switching to a .22 varmint cartridge was viable. Remember, we have the benefit of hindsight; in the 1950s, the SCHV concept was unproven, but there were years of battlefield experience showing that .30 caliber worked.
...a .30 cal built on a 27gr or less case capacity is going to suck ballistically within practical rifle engagement ranges in military settings.

.300 BLK offers performance comparable to 7.62x39, and that seems to have done pretty well.
346ci
Offline
Posts: 975
Feedback: 100% (44)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 8:18:17 PM
Originally Posted By trenttyre:
Originally Posted By 346ci:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
BIG BIG difference in a 308 pushing a bullet at 2600+ and a 300blk pushing a lighter bullet at 2200-2300


That is what the 300wtf kuckleheads don't get. The numbers just are not there, however, hype and marketing is. I'd consider the 300 if I were going to shoot subs suppressed and wanted a 8" barrel. Other than those specs, the 300 is a gimmick. Hell, a heavy 5.56 makes more sense. To each his own, spend your money as you please.



300 BLK expands to 0.600 at 300 yards from a 9 inch barrel. And it penetrates 20 inches. That will stop a deer, hog, criminal, etc.

There is no denying it does the job at ranges that matter and beyond.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/files/2012/01/300BLK-300-small-500x336.jpg


It has been used to win the nationals in 3-gun - while making Major power factor - so anyone who says it is not capable of power is damaging their own credibility. But since you are an anonymous internment poster, your reputation probably does not matter as you can just get a new screen name at any time.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... nationals/


Yeah and you believe everything you read also. When you mortar that round into a deer at 300yds, assuming you actually call your dope right, don't laugh when it runs off wounded. The 300 is out of gas at those distances. I gave it it's due, a 300yd round it is not. For deer sized game, your best bet is going to be within 150-175yds. Unless you like to track and watch deer hobble off into the dark yonder. Not sportsman like.

You guys need to get serious...
RunsBellows
mind blower extrordinaire
Military
Offline
Posts: 1503
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 8:23:32 PM
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
"Why is this cartidge a capable intermediate rifle cartridge?"

"Because someone won the 3-gun Nationals with it! We even have the ISPC cardboard targets to prove it!"

Correlation does not equal causation, especially here. What's the trajectory of a 110gr Barnes Vortex at 300yds out of a 9" barrel. What's the MV out of a 9" barrel?


I'd like to know as well. A rainbow arc, with good results.... is still a rainbow arc. It's not like you will be able to go from a MOUT enviroment and then switch to +400 yards at the drop of a hat.

To each his own. I'll stick to my Grendel.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Dont try this at home, I am a professional American.
sywagon
Online
Posts: 23
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 8:39:32 PM
The OP needs to come back to this thread and specify "best for what". Otherwise continued discussion of what is "best" is impossible and the only thing that even makes a little sense as being useful is characterizing the individual merits of the different options independently.



Originally Posted By GACKER1143:
sywagon
I can agree with the bullets specifically made for the 30-30 it's pretty much a 200 yard round- but who said it can only be used with round nosed bullets? I've shot the Speer 130 HP out of mine- yes it limits you to two rounds- but load these and it becomes a good round out to 250 or better! I've got some 125 gr TNT's -never shot them before I got my 300 Blk but I think I;m going to give them a go in the 30-30 for shits and giggles! I'd love to find some good 120 gr soft points bt's!
I've shot some yotes with the 30-30 and the 130 HP they are a great round at that speed act just like most SP not explosive like they are at '06 speeds. So I expect the same results at the 300 Black speeds witch will make them a very good stopper ! Maybe I can get a muley to co-operate and step in front of one!


Yeah, I've got nothing against .300BLK or 30-30. They have their uses. The example you give actually illustrates the importance of BC at <300 yards though. In spite of having a variety of superior long range rifle chamberings, I am a huge fan of my 1892 .44mag. In 300gr within range it will drop a big bear or elk in it's spot. For me personally it is a great round because I like causing massive destruction to inanimate objects out to 100yards with a peep sight and I like big holes in paper. I also enjoy shooting tiny groups at >300 yards and long range hunting, hence my personal interest in 6.5 for me, but if I could keep only one it would likely be the .44 because it is just stupidly fun to me. If SHTF I would want BOTH, and a shotgun, and a bunch of other stuff.
Twisted10
Offline
Posts: 94
Feedback: 100% (11)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 8:49:27 PM
6.8spc for me.

Perfect balance for me and what I use mine for. Hunting.


Cheap ammo is coming but not fast enuff!
krpind
ARFCOM Czar
NRA
Online
Posts: 39280
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 9:41:48 PM
[Last Edit: 4/10/2012 9:44:27 PM by Zhukov]
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
I'm just about sick and tired of all the non-technical bullshit that keeps getting posted in these threads. <Off-topic comment removed - Z>


Me too and I'm going to start liberally using the report button to get this stuff stopped. I suggest this to everyone.

ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Just remember to pay it forward. If someone is in need, do something positive.
krpind
ARFCOM Czar
NRA
Online
Posts: 39281
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 9:49:31 PM
[Last Edit: 4/10/2012 9:50:30 PM by krpind]
Thanks Z

ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Just remember to pay it forward. If someone is in need, do something positive.
QuicksilverJPR
Multi-Caliber!
Offline
Posts: 6535
Feedback: 100% (5)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 9:54:30 PM
Originally Posted By krpind:
Thanks Z



Yes, thank you General Zhukov....


My 10.5" 6.8 launches 85 grain pills at 2700 fps (with a suppressor on). I can get 3100 in my 18" barreled upper. I haven't shot much else out of the shorty....no need, in my book. I guess I could try the 95gr TTSX.
sywagon
Online
Posts: 24
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/10/2012 10:36:31 PM
At the end of the day, the diversity of list isn't really very impressive for a platform. I can run that many just buying uppers for my Witness. I'm unclear on why anyone would want less options.
Page:  / 14