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dirtbikesandguns
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Posted: 1/23/2012 12:50:30 AM
[Last Edit: 2/14/2012 10:13:13 AM by dirtbikesandguns]
I've done a little looking around.......why do I get the impression no one cares for screw kit builds ? Do they really suck that bad?
If they are done by a person who knows how to correctly use a tap............. and maybe red locktite to keep them from loosening....whats the problem?
Usurpation
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Posted: 1/23/2012 12:58:45 AM
[Last Edit: 1/23/2012 1:00:30 AM by Usurpation]
The overall consensus is that Mr. Kalashnikov didn't design it that way so it's a NO-GO. The taper head rivets are the standard to meet. Screws can back out, adhesives can fail, and the threads on a screw could "cut" the receiver holes (not sure about this one as factory receivers are very very hard). Biggest thing is that properly set rivets expand in the channel and more or less force the two matted items to be close together. AK's don't have much shearing force as one has been built to demonstrate this out of toothpicks if memory serves. Also, screw builds are typically done without removing the barrel; which means that the screws don't have much "meat" to bite on.

Happy hunting
Usurpation (AKA Mortis)
uscombatdiver
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Posted: 1/23/2012 9:10:06 AM
Yeah, what he said.
jdoming728
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Posted: 1/23/2012 11:06:50 AM
My first one was a Screw build and I shot over 500 rounds from it before I learned to do Rivets, It operated fine until I wanted to make it a traditional wood build and just took out the screws and riveted together... Other than the trigger guard which stayed with a Akbuilder screw plate.. Till yesterday and since I got my trigger jig now its 100 percent rivet build.... Don't get me wrong It operated just fine the other way I just wanted to learn something new and decided to change the one I already built rather than buy another kit... I already have to many AK-s so rather than build a new I just opted to rebuild a old...
A Man dont have to die to go to hell!!
uscombatdiver
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Posted: 1/23/2012 11:12:12 AM
[Last Edit: 1/23/2012 11:12:55 AM by uscombatdiver]
Originally Posted By jdoming728:
"change the one I already built rather than buy another kit..."


You should be ashamed of yourself. No self-respecting builder would do such a thing. I'm sure you have some odd AK part sitting around waiting to be built into a functioning rifle. Even with 6 full kits I have a pistol grip, muzzle brake, bayonet or cleaning rod that needs to be built into a rifle. Heck, that's reason to buy four more kits.
jdoming728
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Posted: 1/23/2012 1:29:14 PM
Yep your right I do have parts but no more room in my safe.... I guess I could build another one and hang it on my wall......Im getting my friends to build theirs that away I can still build and helplllll Get it Help......I think I need help....
A Man dont have to die to go to hell!!
gfunk
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Posted: 1/23/2012 1:50:00 PM
They work fine if done correctly. I've done some w a mix of hex screws, rivets and u drives even! These function fine also. I kind of want to get a press though and do some now w all rivets.
olekennyroy
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Posted: 1/23/2012 2:33:53 PM


I've been waiting on a reason to use this...

I personally have no experience building a kit, but I have no doubt that with the correct fasteners, torqued correctly, that a screw build would be every bit as reliable as a rivet build. From a manufacturing stand point, rivets are cheap and quick, machine screws aren't. I would be very willing to say that the cost is the primary reason that rivets are used on stamped receivers, and that it has nothing to do with whether or not machine screws would fail.
Usurpation
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Posted: 1/23/2012 2:58:46 PM
I doubt that we are looking at a catastrophic material failure here. Mostly from a standpoint of a fastener that will not require maintenance over the long haul. One must understand that the simple inexpensive rivet is also rather foolproof. It doesn't need to be fiddled with. Also, if one were to have the fastener loosen while in fire (or fire fight) one may not have the time or even know that this is happening. If the front trunion becomes loose and the rifle MUST be fired; bad bad things could happen. Range weapon with the builder using it, may not be as big an issue. Conscript in the dessert, circumstance changes a bit.
BushBoar
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Posted: 1/23/2012 4:51:56 PM
Mark (gunplumber) should be along shortly to unload/explain why screw builds are not a good thing.
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"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782
jdoming728
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Posted: 1/23/2012 9:27:49 PM
As I said in the past,, I did a rivet build since I was unsure of my talents but now 12 rifles later and all but lone rivet builds I'm sure....back then if I made a mistake I could have corrected it easily with a screw build, now it's nothing but rivets and spot welder...I have even riveted all my trigger guards on my own builds.I don't oppose a screw build for ones first but when your done learning rivet it...
A Man dont have to die to go to hell!!
uscombatdiver
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Posted: 1/24/2012 12:28:01 AM
Originally Posted By jdoming728:
Yep your right I do have parts but no more room in my safe.... I guess I could build another one and hang it on my wall......Im getting my friends to build theirs that away I can still build and helplllll Get it Help......I think I need help....


That's the spirit. Don't let space be your excuse, rise above the rest. Why have a gun cabinet when you can have a gun room? Keep up the good work, every AK you buy and build is one less that stays on the market and heaven forbid never make it to this country and end up in Kyber pass and ultimately a terrorist (that's what keeps me building, making the world safer one AK at a time).
Quake_Guy
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Posted: 1/24/2012 2:32:44 AM
if done right, they will work. but with kit prices being so expensive now, why bother with screws, just get it done with rivets
Paintballer
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Posted: 1/26/2012 11:34:10 PM
Yes screws will work if done right, but if you have the smarts to do screws right you should know how permanent rivets are.
So why not do it right the first time.
Gunplumber
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Posted: 1/27/2012 12:12:18 AM
[Last Edit: 1/27/2012 12:13:49 AM by Gunplumber]
(sigh)

Look - "screw builds. . . if done right".

Define "right"? How do you drive drunk correctly?

How can you properly use the improper fastener? It's an oxymoron. Screws and rivets are completely different fasteners for completely different purposes. That there are some specific circumstances where the necessity to disassemble the item outweighs the inferiority of the screw as a fastener, I don't dispute. That's why gun designers for a hundred years have come up with all kinds of gadgets to work around the EXPECTED failure of the screw.

Those who advocate screws as an equally viable alternative, don't know what they don't know and are happy in their ignorance. I grow weary of trying to educate them.

No AK - even prototypes, were ever screwed together. There are no screws on the AK.* There is a reason for this. If one is so ignorant of fastener technology as to not grasp why, then it pays to educate oneself rather than loudly crowing on a subject one knows nothing about.


*someone is going to pipe in "hey, the pistol grip is a screw". More ignorance. No, it is a threaded rivet. Once the end is flared (that is why it is hollow) it ceases to be a screw (bolt, actually), and becomes a rivet in function. Most hobby guys don't like to make it permanent, as, like with barbie dolls, there is a drive to change the outfit every so often.


T. Mark Graham
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dirtbikesandguns
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Posted: 1/27/2012 1:28:53 AM
Its kinda weird.....In my world (the motorcycle racing world) we hate rivets. They are always snapping or rattling loose. We either weld it or replace it with a screw / bolt or something. There is varying grades of loctite for the screws....from a "little" hold, to "snap the head of the screw off trying to get it out" hold ! So, from my world, a screw kit seems viable.

Shear strength of a screw kit doesn't seem to matter if some Joe can make an AK run with toothpicks or wooded dowels ??
The right grade of heat resistant loctite will prevent them from loosening.....
I have the tools and taps to do it.....

I dont have all the fancy little jigs for the trigger guard and trunnions ($$$)
I do have a 20 ton press though....and a rivet gun.....just dont have the riveting set-up for the press

So, the decision??

Spend a couple hundred more dollars for the jiggies and rivet away.....or,

Totally go against Kalashnikov, God and Gunplumber and just screw it !.......... lol
uscombatdiver
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Posted: 1/27/2012 9:21:53 AM
Originally Posted By dirtbikesandguns:
Its kinda weird.....In my world (the motorcycle racing world) we hate rivets. They are always snapping or rattling loose. We either weld it or replace it with a screw / bolt or something. There is varying grades of loctite for the screws....from a "little" hold, to "snap the head of the screw off trying to get it out" hold ! So, from my world, a screw kit seems viable.

Shear strength of a screw kit doesn't seem to matter if some Joe can make an AK run with toothpicks or wooded dowels ??
The right grade of heat resistant loctite will prevent them from loosening.....
I have the tools and taps to do it.....

I dont have all the fancy little jigs for the trigger guard and trunnions ($$$)
I do have a 20 ton press though....and a rivet gun.....just dont have the riveting set-up for the press

So, the decision??

Spend a couple hundred more dollars for the jiggies and rivet away.....or,

Totally go against Kalashnikov, God and Gunplumber and just screw it !.......... lol


While I agree, screws may work despite the fact they were never used on original AKs (probably because the AK was designed for the most uneducated person and was to work for the longest time without any true gunsmith involvement) I wouldn't do a screw build simply because I think the rivet jigs are expensive jigs. We have gone full circle from trying to do without the jigs, to buying the expensive jigs to making simple yet very effective jigs. You don't need a bolt cutter 'rivet tool'. A nice rocking rivet tool works even better. Any piece of hardened scrap steel easily is modified for this. It will do all your rivets if you take the time. You don't need a 20 ton press and a barrel jig, the screw/thread method works great and the threaded rod and nuts don't cost that much. You don't need an expensive trigger guard jig, look at it and use that welder you say you have and make one. My brother who is a welder and never saw our temporarily missing trigger guard jig made one that was better so that when we found the lost one we use it only if the one my brother made is being used by some one else. My point is, don't pretend that you can't do rivets when in fact they are less technical than tapping something and ideal for the job. Sure, there is industrial strength Lock tite I have some from my industrial mechanic days but unless you are really bent on going with screws most who have built with them ultimately revert to rivets (and most simply because of the fact that rivets are peace of mind, not because of any major malfunction).
Gunplumber
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Posted: 1/27/2012 9:31:17 AM
And there is that . . . when I went through the list of what was required for screws versus rivets, I saw no savings in time or money to use screws, nor a lower skill level that would suffice.
Add to that, you destroy any resale value on the kit by using screws, as the holes will then be oversize for the "correct" rivets.

I think people are just afraid. Most everyone can visualize how the tap works and has probably threaded a few holes here and there. Most people have not riveted. Chainmail armor was riveted 2000 years ago. . We're not dealing with complicated technology. But it is new to some people and they have a resistance to what they are unfamiliar with.

It takes me about 20 minutes to install all the rivets in an AK receiver. Now I'm using some expensive hydraulic tooling rather than manual, but the point is, it take me longer to demil the parts kit and locate and drill the holes than to actually install them.

T. Mark Graham
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gfunk
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Posted: 1/28/2012 10:42:54 AM
Build in the manner that makes it possible for you to enjoy the build and have a functional AK. This forum 6 or 7 years ago was FILLED by folks using screws and it was the norm and totally accepted by all. I would venture to say thousands of screwed aks were put together by board members with no reports I can remember of them disintegrating in their hands.
I don't disagree that from a production environment rivets are used and that screws will lpeer your resale value. Anyways whatever way you accomplish it be proud of your build.
Gunplumber
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Posted: 1/28/2012 11:09:18 AM
Originally Posted By gfunk:
Anyways whatever way you accomplish it be proud of your build.


I guess that's the new norm. No matter how crappy one's work be, be "proud" of it.

T. Mark Graham
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dirtbikesandguns
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Posted: 1/28/2012 1:03:11 PM
Originally Posted By Gunplumber:
Originally Posted By gfunk:
Anyways whatever way you accomplish it be proud of your build.


I guess that's the new norm. No matter how crappy one's work be, be "proud" of it.



"They" were right about you, Gunplumber....lol

They said you'd be in here.....all anti-screw and stuff, .......heh heh. But you got me thinkin' on how to make my own rivet-setting press jigs etc. Believe ti or not, I'm pretty handy at fabricating metal and working on a lathe (custom bike parts )

Maybe I'll just do both....screw build and a rivet build. But, the more people say a screw build shouldnt be done, the more I want to do it....it's in my nature? Ecspecially since there seems to be no catastrophic reasons not to. Its funny, I'm always the test subject on the dirtbike too!

So, Gunplumber.......will you let me slide if I promise to do a rivet build too ??
Gunplumber
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Posted: 1/28/2012 1:51:31 PM
[Last Edit: 1/28/2012 1:52:05 PM by Gunplumber]
If you want to weld your AK Into a floor lamp, it doesn't have any real affect on me.

It is more an emotional response, like seeing whales beach themselves. There is nothing I can do about it, and I don't understand it, but the senselessness of it saddens me nonetheless.
T. Mark Graham
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mustangduckk
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Posted: 1/28/2012 7:58:11 PM


I was sitting back waiting for GP to chime in.

He's got some strong opinions that come from years of experience.

When the most experienced guys in the industry say something is a bad idea, its usually a bad idea.

I don't have nearly the experience of some of the other members on here, but I can tell you that I have no regrets buying and building the tools to do the job right.

I don't think anyone has ever riveted together an AK and thought, "dang I wish I had half-assed this with screws."


dirtbikesandguns
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Posted: 1/28/2012 9:00:28 PM
The whole point of this thread was fo find out why screws are "half assed"???
Other than "they could come loose" which can be easily resolved, and the "rivet purist".......I see no problem??
I'll end up doing one with rivets sooner or later...........until then, I'll screw one up real nice like
Gunplumber
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Posted: 1/28/2012 9:19:03 PM
The whole point of this thread was fo find out why screws are "half assed"???

(You are asking for hours of information in a few paragraphs)

Because a screw is a completely different fastener type. It is nothing more than an inclined plane (lever) in spiral rotation. It gets its holding power by the threads stretching under a given torque.

While the material of the screw can be very "strong" (a misleading term in metallurgy), its very hardness can cause failure. So using a "stronger" grade 5 screw can actually cause more rapid failure than a softer screw.

A screw cannot fill the hole in which it is placed.

A rivet by design expands to fill the hole in which it is placed. This minimizes movement of the fastener,

The V neck rivet draws the receiver into the trunion, transferring the shear force from the receiver to the heavier trunion. By filling the hole through expansion, it moves with the incredible torque, yaw, and flex of a firing receiver. A screw is attempting to "clamp" while resisting this significant force.

There is more, but I've written it a dozen times, and am weary.

Here's a few hours of reading.

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36144


As a wedge, the slightest movement removes all tension. Therefore, a screw moving 1/4 turn has completely and totally failed.

T. Mark Graham
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uscombatdiver
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Posted: 1/29/2012 9:32:45 AM
I think the take home message wasn't a bait Gunplumber only to bash him as it seems was the point of this thread, but the fact is while a screw build may work (emphasis on 'may') a rivet build isn't so impossible or complicated that you should do a screw build instead of a rivet build. If this was really about avoiding some sort of cost then welding would be the logical alternative. Sure the roads are full of idiots who without any distractions like cell phones or inhibitions like alcohol do a pretty good job making it unsafe for the rest of us but just because they haven't killed anyone yet doesn't mean it's a great idea. Just because many have trusted screw builds and possibly started out with them only to later revert back to a rivet build (and like Gunplumber pointed out, the opening up of the whole decreases the effectiveness of the rivet) doesn't some how mean it's a great idea. Fast forward the clock to the next generation and I can guaranty that those scew builds will start to show signs of trouble while the rivet and weld builds almost certainly will not. Most don't look at history and learn from it and this argument is a perfect example of that. There's a reason why skyscrapers were riveted and not screwed together. Before you disregard this point, compare the immediate forces on the things being fastened together. Once compared you will see it is the same type of fastener need and yet no screws were used and you can go back and read why they weren't even considered and you'll find some of Gunplumber's argument. If you are working on your spy art and these are to be disposable AKs then sure a screw could work in a pinch and for a limited amount of time but if you care to pass these on to any of your loved ones do it for them if you won't do it for yourself (it's more likely a catastrophic failure will happen with them than with you and that's purely because of the genius design of the AK). Having purchased taps and dies I can honestly say they cost more than any rivet tool I have made out of scrap metal and do the job far better than any screw could possibly ever do. The two reasons people do screw builds is one to prove it can be done (like a toothpick build) and two because you want to cut corners (ie not remove the barrel to fasten the front trunion to the receiver). That's the two things that come to mind when some one does a screw build or I see one. I'll have to add a third, just plain stupidity. Like those drivers who are a hazard to themselves and everyone else on the road, people will choose to do a screw build just to say 'screw you' to all the rest and for no other reason. Do what you like, it's your decision but don't pretend you are saving money, time or anyone else by doing it.
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