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PHO3N1X
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Posted: 8/28/2009 1:51:28 PM
Sorry if this is a newb question, but why isn't there a how-to on here on how to completely disassemble the AK family of weapons? Normal field stripping is fine for everyday maintenance, but at some point every gun needs to be taken all the way down for a thorough cleaning if it is used often. I personally have figured out(after much swearing and injured fingers) how to do it, but I'm guessing there's a lot of people that are like how I was that don't know how to disassemble the bolt, trigger group, etc and are wondering how(and information is quite scarce, it took me hours of googling to just find a pic on how to get the Shepherds crook back in).

I would figure since most people use Wolf ammo for their AK, a complete disassembly is quite necessary after every few thousand rounds or so, especially of the bolt assembly. The area around the FCG pieces gets quite littered with the red bits of Wolf as well, and is hard to get to if all the components have not been removed.
timb3
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Posted: 8/28/2009 5:53:13 PM
That's a good question. I've seen it described a number of times online, but nobody seems to have ever put the description in a permanent "online manual" anywhere.

The closest thing I can tell you about would be the AGI video (which I can't find online anywhere) for sale here: http://www.americangunsmith.com/view.php?id=30. It's a pretty good video, and does include removal and re-installation of the trigger group. - They also have a different video on building ak's from a kit.
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briansmithwins
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Posted: 8/28/2009 7:09:38 PM
http://www.box.net/shared/cu2djae1zb has a AK armorer's manual that includes detail stripping info. BSW
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HeavyMetal
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Posted: 8/28/2009 11:05:35 PM
Normal field stripping is fine for everyday maintenance, but at some point every gun needs to be taken all the way down for a thorough cleaning if it is used often.


No, it does not. If it ain't broke, don't break it.



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timb3
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Posted: 8/29/2009 2:16:21 AM
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Normal field stripping is fine for everyday maintenance, but at some point every gun needs to be taken all the way down for a thorough cleaning if it is used often.


No, it does not. If it ain't broke, don't break it.







You'll have to forgive us... some of us can not own something without taking it ALL the way apart.
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Posted: 8/29/2009 2:19:54 AM
Originally Posted By briansmithwins:
http://www.box.net/shared/cu2djae1zb has a AK armorer's manual that includes detail stripping info. BSW


Thanks for the link!
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PHO3N1X
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Posted: 8/29/2009 2:33:37 AM
Originally Posted By timb3:

You'll have to forgive us... some of us can not own something without taking it ALL the way apart.


lol, I understand those that don't, it is an AK after all. I'm just a clean freak, and I know there are others like me out there... they had to get the idea for Monk from somewhere :)
POLYTHENEPAM
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Posted: 8/29/2009 8:15:15 AM
There's nothing wrong with completely disassembling the rifle. It was designed to be disassembled and reassembled by illiterate peasants "supervised" by a beardless recent graduate of a third rate Soviet military academy.
HeavyMetal
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Posted: 8/29/2009 2:46:02 PM
[Last Edit: 8/29/2009 2:48:38 PM by HeavyMetal]
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
There's nothing wrong with completely disassembling the rifle. It was designed to be disassembled and reassembled by illiterate peasants "supervised" by a beardless recent graduate of a third rate Soviet military academy.


Field striped? Yes.

Detail stripped? No. Even the US Army does not allow it's soliders to detail strip rifles. It is a UCMJ offense to do so. That is a Direct Support level function in th US military. The reason is someone will lose a spring or put something in backwards.


I have seen detail stripped AK's missing parts before.

Again, it is not necessary. Zip, zero, nada. The weapon can be cleaned fine without it.



If you are a clean freak, get a can of brake cleaner. Re-apply lube throughly after to anything the brake cleaner touched.
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HeavyMetal
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Posted: 8/29/2009 2:47:33 PM
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briansmithwins
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Posted: 8/29/2009 3:20:46 PM
Detail stripping usually isn't necessary. The manual I referenced requires field stripping and cleaning anytime the rifle is fired or daily in the field. It calls for detail stripping the bolt when the rifle is exposed to excess moisture or when you're ordered to do so by a officer. Removing the trigger group is allowed only by unit armorers when changing to winter lubrication or to replace broken parts.

Since I'm not in the Soviet military and don't have a unit armorer I get to do these things myself. OTOH, If I fuck it up I can't turn the rifle in and get a new one either. BSW
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Posted: 8/29/2009 4:18:21 PM
[Last Edit: 8/29/2009 4:37:51 PM by timb3]
Oh good god. I swear, some folks just can't give people the benefit of the doubt.

The military is composed of a large number of people, some of whom care nothing about firearms in the first place, and some of whom also have little to no cranial capacity, so to speak. This website is a gun enthusiast website, not the military. People who like to fiddle with guns will usually end up taking things apart. Period. Providing them with information is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. (and should not be compared with allowing military recruits to screw things up)

Hell, it's commonplace for people to change out their trigger groups when de-banning ban era rifles, etc... not to mention the fact that there are lots of us who have built these rifles from kits... which is MUCH more involved than simply taking the trigger group apart.

Stop treating the average enthusiast as if they were morons.

And yes, I realize you're a mod. All due respect to your authority on this website, but that doesn't make your opinion right.

Edited to add: Not providing useful information to users because you _think_ they _might_ mess something up is right along the same line of thinking as those who think that most people shouldn't be allowed to have guns because they _might_ do something wrong with them.
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lambo
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Posted: 8/29/2009 4:42:33 PM
since we don't have an armory to turn our weapons into for repair or modifications (at least i don't), i suggest that everyone should detail strip their ak and ar15 and become very familiar with the process. why in the world would you not be as familiar as possible with your rifle.

as far as the if it ain't broke don't fix it saying, that's fine if we're talking about your lawn mower, dvd player, even your car, but if it pans out to where you depend on your rifle in an emergency situation and it breaks, it suddenly becomes a very awkward club. you would be asking yourself if listening to the guy on the forum who said "don't worry about it" was the right thing to do.

bottom line. shoot it, clean it, keep spare parts, and know every single part and movement. you won't regret it.
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Posted: 8/29/2009 4:47:35 PM

Originally Posted By timb3:
Oh good god. I swear, some folks just can't give people the benefit of the doubt.

The military is composed of a large number of people, some of whom care nothing about firearms in the first place, and some of whom also have little to no cranial capacity, so to speak. This website is a gun enthusiast website, not the military. People who like to fiddle with guns will usually end up taking things apart. Period. Providing them with information is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. (and should not be compared with allowing military recruits to screw things up)

Hell, it's commonplace for people to change out their trigger groups when de-banning ban era rifles, etc... not to mention the fact that there are lots of us who have built these rifles from kits... which is MUCH more involved than simply taking the trigger group apart.

Stop treating the average enthusiast as if they were morons.

And yes, I realize you're a mod. All due respect to your authority on this website, but that doesn't make your opinion right.

Edited to add: Not providing useful information to users because you _think_ they _might_ mess something up is right along the same line of thinking as those who think that most people shouldn't be allowed to have guns because they _might_ do something wrong with them.

amen brother

HeavyMetal
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Posted: 8/29/2009 10:55:52 PM
[Last Edit: 8/29/2009 11:21:23 PM by HeavyMetal]
Not providing useful information to users because you _think_ they _might_ mess something up is right along the same line of thinking as those who think that most people shouldn't be allowed to have guns because they _might_ do something wrong with them.


I have a crisp, new $100 bill for the first individual who can point out what information I witheld from this thread.

Please save the drama. I am offering advice based on experience. The time to go playing with a detail strip is when you have plenty of spare parts on hand, not for the hell of it.

as far as the if it ain't broke don't fix it saying, that's fine if we're talking about your lawn mower, dvd player, even your car, but if it pans out to where you depend on your rifle in an emergency situation and it breaks, it suddenly becomes a very awkward club. you would be asking yourself if listening to the guy on the forum who said "don't worry about it" was the right thing to do.


It also beomes a very awkward club when the extractor axle pin or the firing pin retaining pin goes for a trip too.

Hell, it's commonplace for people to change out their trigger groups when de-banning ban era rifles, etc... not to mention the fact that there are lots of us who have built these rifles from kits... which is MUCH more involved than simply taking the trigger group apart.


Yep, and that does not qualify as taking it apart for the just the heck of it.

Stop treating the average enthusiast as if they were morons.


Your argument is one giant strawman. Try debating what I said, not some distorted version.

And yes, I realize you're a mod. All due respect to your authority on this website, but that doesn't make your opinion right.


Doesn't make it wrong either.

I remember fixing a MAK-90 at a LAV class that someone who met the definition of a 'gun enthusiast' was having trouble with. Seems it wanted to fire more than one round and the hammer was following.

It was missing a disconnector spring. Luckily for him, I had my tackle-box with me and has it running right in about three minutes. He didn't even have a clue what was wrong until I showed him. This is someone who has had considerable training. This is not the only example I have.

If you want to learn how an AK ticks, do it in a controlled environment and not for a dubious reason. There are books and DVD's that tell you exactly how to do it.
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lambo
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Posted: 8/30/2009 12:57:17 AM
[Last Edit: 8/30/2009 12:59:33 AM by lambo]

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Not providing useful information to users because you _think_ they _might_ mess something up is right along the same line of thinking as those who think that most people shouldn't be allowed to have guns because they _might_ do something wrong with them.


I have a crisp, new $100 bill for the first individual who can point out what information I witheld from this thread.

Please save the drama. I am offering advice based on experience. The time to go playing with a detail strip is when you have plenty of spare parts on hand, not for the hell of it.

as far as the if it ain't broke don't fix it saying, that's fine if we're talking about your lawn mower, dvd player, even your car, but if it pans out to where you depend on your rifle in an emergency situation and it breaks, it suddenly becomes a very awkward club. you would be asking yourself if listening to the guy on the forum who said "don't worry about it" was the right thing to do.


It also beomes a very awkward club when the extractor axle pin or the firing pin retaining pin goes for a trip too.

Hell, it's commonplace for people to change out their trigger groups when de-banning ban era rifles, etc... not to mention the fact that there are lots of us who have built these rifles from kits... which is MUCH more involved than simply taking the trigger group apart.


Yep, and that does not qualify as taking it apart for the just the heck of it.

Stop treating the average enthusiast as if they were morons.


Your argument is one giant strawman. Try debating what I said, not some distorted version.

And yes, I realize you're a mod. All due respect to your authority on this website, but that doesn't make your opinion right.


Doesn't make it wrong either.

I remember fixing a MAK-90 at a LAV class that someone who met the definition of a 'gun enthusiast' was having trouble with. Seems it wanted to fire more than one round and the hammer was following.

It was missing a disconnector spring. Luckily for him, I had my tackle-box with me and has it running right in about three minutes. He didn't even have a clue what was wrong until I showed him. This is someone who has had considerable training. This is not the only example I have.

If you want to learn how an AK ticks, do it in a controlled environment and not for a dubious reason. There are books and DVD's that tell you exactly how to do it.


you just gave THE perfect example of EXACTLY why everyone should take their ak's apart and know them up and down, inside and out, before they need to use them. for those that don't feel that they can take it apart by all means do not do it. but for 99% of the people that own an ak and can read and write, or walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, they have plenty of common sense to take one apart and put it back together. a simpleton can do it. it is far from rocket science.

for some odd reason you had a tackle box of goodies available and the know how to help the guy. why shouldn't everyone else, including him? is there a particular reason that you should be allowed to take ak's apart and no one else?
POLYTHENEPAM
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Posted: 8/30/2009 8:25:48 AM
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Again, it is not necessary. Zip, zero, nada. The weapon can be cleaned fine without it.
If you are a clean freak, get a can of brake cleaner. Re-apply lube throughly after to anything the brake cleaner touched.



The only way I've ever found to properly lubricate the hammer/hammer pin is to remove the pin.

whiteshark357
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Posted: 8/30/2009 9:32:10 AM
Looks like good information from both sides of this, and I won't argue with either, just add my $0.02. Obviously if you shove a lot of lead then a more thorough cleaning is mandated occasionally. While I am competent enough to fully strip most weapons FCG & all, and (more importantly) re-assemble it properly, it gets to be a pain-in-the-ass unless you really enjoy it as a hobby. For repairs and upgrades, of course it has to be done, but just for a thorough clean & lube, maybe not necessary.

On my hunting rifle (Win Mod 70) and pistol (Super RedHawk 44Mag), I let my trusted gunsmith handle deep cleaning, and they get a good check-up/tune-up in the process... FTW.

Military-grade weapons are designed to function under many adverse conditions, and I really haven't had the need to go beyond a standard field-strip for maintenance. I use a spray like Gun Scrubber or Brakleen in conjuction with brushing/picking to get all the trash out of the receiver/FCG, and clean/dry that out with compressed air. Swab the bore with Hoppe's #9, inspect carefully, follow it up with some Tri-Flow in all the right spots, and it's GTG. Having been an AR/AK/FAL shooter for the better part of 3 decades, I've found this procedure works very well and saves a lot of time.
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HeavyMetal
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Posted: 8/30/2009 10:54:16 AM
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Again, it is not necessary. Zip, zero, nada. The weapon can be cleaned fine without it.
If you are a clean freak, get a can of brake cleaner. Re-apply lube throughly after to anything the brake cleaner touched.



The only way I've ever found to properly lubricate the hammer/hammer pin is to remove the pin.




I find Weapons Shield penetrates quite well.
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HeavyMetal
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Posted: 8/30/2009 11:01:37 AM
[Last Edit: 8/30/2009 11:04:50 AM by HeavyMetal]
you just gave THE perfect example of EXACTLY why everyone should take their ak's apart and know them up and down, inside and out, before they need to use them. for those that don't feel that they can take it apart by all means do not do it. but for 99% of the people that own an ak and can read and write, or walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, they have plenty of common sense to take one apart and put it back together. a simpleton can do it. it is far from rocket science.


The gentleman in the above example would fit your description and yet he ended up with a non-functional weapon. What was bad, in addition to having no small spare parts, he was not even aware it was missing. What if he had put that rifle away and next called on it when his or his families lives were in peril?

for some odd reason you had a tackle box of goodies available and the know how to help the guy. why shouldn't everyone else, including him? is there a particular reason that you should be allowed to take ak's apart and no one else?


There is a point here, you even subconsciously make it in your post and yet it escapes your conscious mind. I am not flying without a safety net, remember that tackle box? What about some guy who decides to experiment on his Polish Tantal? How much trouble it is going to be if he loses a part?

There are ways to learn to work on an AK. Trial and error dissassembly for the hell of it is a poor one. There should be a higher purpose served.
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POLYTHENEPAM
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Posted: 8/30/2009 11:26:35 AM
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Again, it is not necessary. Zip, zero, nada. The weapon can be cleaned fine without it.
If you are a clean freak, get a can of brake cleaner. Re-apply lube throughly after to anything the brake cleaner touched.



The only way I've ever found to properly lubricate the hammer/hammer pin is to remove the pin.




I find Weapons Shield penetrates quite well.


Ironically, the only way to tell if enough has seeped between the pin and the hammer and then migrated to the bottom (which is the critical place where most wear would occur) is to REMOVE the pin and examine it! If you don't it's hit or miss. Not exactly the way I do lubrication of critical parts (especially ones that aren't up to mil-spec).

HeavyMetal
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Posted: 8/30/2009 11:34:21 AM
I just be generous with the lube. I work it in the dimple end at teh large head and I put a large drop on either end inside the reciever.


I have often wondered if a small tangential hole drilled in each side shaft lobe on the hammer for a lube hole would be a good idea. Proabally unnecessary.
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PHO3N1X
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Posted: 8/30/2009 12:41:29 PM
[Last Edit: 8/30/2009 12:42:59 PM by PHO3N1X]
I don't really see why it's a bad thing to detail strip a weapon... If you lose parts or can't put it back together, you can always take it to a gunsmith(which is what I've done on occasion, but mostly I can figure it out myself).

Besides, if you shoot a gun enough, ALL the parts get dirty... it doesn't make sense to only clean the pieces you can get to just by basic field strip.

I can completely disassemble and reassemble my Glocks, AK, Ruger 10/22, and Colt 1911. Some of the parts are a pain in the ass, yes, but it's worth it if it's had five or six thousand rounds through it and there is GSR clotted all inside the internals. I found this especially true for my 10/22. One day I decided to take apart the trigger pack and clean it(it had probably seen at least 10,000 rounds prior to this). Afterwards, I was really happy I did, it smoothed out the trigger pull a good bit and lightened just a bit too, there was that much crap in it. And no, spraying lube in and spraying it out with air doesn't work the same as taking it apart and scrubbing each piece individually... I know, because that's how I'd cleaned the trigger pack previous to the first disassembly.

Firearms for the most part are simple devices, it isn't hard to figure out how they tick and how all the parts work together.

Besides, I take my firearms very seriously, after all, I might need them in a time of emergency some day... I want to know for SURE they are in 100% firing condition and will work when I need them. The best way to have that peace of mind is be completely familiar with their operation and all their parts, and having all said parts clean.
lambo
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Posted: 8/30/2009 10:37:47 PM

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
you just gave THE perfect example of EXACTLY why everyone should take their ak's apart and know them up and down, inside and out, before they need to use them. for those that don't feel that they can take it apart by all means do not do it. but for 99% of the people that own an ak and can read and write, or walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, they have plenty of common sense to take one apart and put it back together. a simpleton can do it. it is far from rocket science.


The gentleman in the above example would fit your description and yet he ended up with a non-functional weapon. What was bad, in addition to having no small spare parts, he was not even aware it was missing. What if he had put that rifle away and next called on it when his or his families lives were in peril?

for some odd reason you had a tackle box of goodies available and the know how to help the guy. why shouldn't everyone else, including him? is there a particular reason that you should be allowed to take ak's apart and no one else?


There is a point here, you even subconsciously make it in your post and yet it escapes your conscious mind. I am not flying without a safety net, remember that tackle box? What about some guy who decides to experiment on his Polish Tantal? How much trouble it is going to be if he loses a part?

There are ways to learn to work on an AK. Trial and error dissassembly for the hell of it is a poor one. There should be a higher purpose served.


you learn by your mistakes. if you can't figure it out on your own you find help. i can't speak for your exploits, maybe that guy is one of the few who really can't do it, or he's one of many who don't want to. if you have the desire, detail stripping the ak is a breeze. a few simple tools and a little bit of familiarization is all it takes.

if you can complete this
(notice the 8+ age recommendation)



you can detail strip this


the bottom line is that we shouldn't dissuade people from learning every nook and cranny of their weapons if they so desire, and that's kind of what's happened in this thread. the message to leave it alone was broadcast. the complete opposite should take place, teach and pass the knowledge. don't be someones stumbling block, be their mentor. let them make the decision on their ability and desire to work on their own weapon, if they take that step give them help not hindrance.

polythenepam and i disagree on alot of topics, but this is one where we totally agree. the gun was designed and implemented with the dimwitted conscript in mind. auto loaders just don't get a whole lot simpler than the ak, take advantage of it!

POLYTHENEPAM
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Posted: 8/31/2009 8:13:31 AM
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
I work it in the dimple end at teh large head and I put a large drop on either end inside the reciever.

It sounds like your lubricating the pin where it meets the receiver. The pin isn't supposed to turn in the receiver, the hammer is supposed to rotate on the pin. When properly assembled, the wire retainer immobilizes the pin in the receiver. When improperly assembled, the retainer allows the pin to turn in the holes in the receiver.
The hammer/trigger spring makes it difficult to lubricate the hammer/pin interface when the pin is in the rifle. It's simplicity itself to lubricate the pin and the hole in the hammer when you're holding them in your hand. Of course, that requires detail stripping ...

HeavyMetal
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Posted: 9/1/2009 10:20:30 PM
Like I said, you better make sure you got sufficient small spare parts before you go tinkering.

You also better have good documentation and an audio/visual reference would be a good addition.


Polythenepam,

The lube creeps into the shaft. I am not timid in my application of weapons shield. I lube my weapons generously. I live near a humid messic Oak-Pine dominated forest and my lube schedule is in accord with my AO. Dust is not an issue for me.
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