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John_Wayne777
Apparently NOT a 4 arms combat master...
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:00:42 AM
[Last Edit: 4/21/2010 9:37:21 AM by John_Wayne777]
In a recent class with ToddG of Pistol-Training.com I had the opportunity to shoot the FAMS TPC, the old qualification the Air Marshalls used to use in the pre-9/11 days. To pass it generally requires someone to be a fairly skilled handgunner.

I'm sort of upgrading this to a challenge. Lots of people carry concealed and think that their skill level is adequate to the task, but in my experience few have ever tried to actually quantify their skill level by comparing themselves to a reasonable standard. Here we're presented with what is admittedly a very high standard that was actually used by a federal LE organization that operates entirely from concealed carry. While I don't necessarily think this is the ultimate benchmark of someone's suitability for handling a firearm in a critical moment, it's still a useful exercise to have people compare themselves to a published standard to see how they fare.

So the challenge is to try the drill using either of the "challenge approved" targets (only one is the real qual target) according to the rules and post up the scores in the format presented. Also post the equipment used in the same format.

Target:
http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=FBI-QITCB



The actual Q target used, AFAIK.

Also acceptable:

http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=IALEFI-Q



Because targets seem to be an issue, I'll expand the rules to basically be anything that qualifies as an FBI Q target, since that's basically what these targets are based on. If you can get your hands on 1 FBI Q target and use it as a template to draw or paint or otherwise produce targets with the same dimensions, that's fine. One possible method is find an FBI Q target, cut out the bottle-shaped Q section, and then use it as a template to paint something like an IDPA target or paper target with cheap spraypaint to produce a challenge-worthy target.

All shots taken at 7 yards. (No closer under any circumstances)

Course of fire:

1. Draw from concealment and fire one round on target. Run twice. Time for both runs added together cannot exceed 3.30 seconds.

2. From the ready position, fire two shots into the target. Run twice. Time for both runs added together cannot exceed 2.70 seconds.

3. From the ready position, fire six shots into the target. Time between shots cannot exceed .6 seconds, overall time cannot exceed 3.0 seconds.

4. From the ready position, one shot, a speed reload (slide forward on loaded chamber, drop mag, replace mag) and another shot on target. Run twice. Time for both runs added together cannot exceed 6.5 seconds.

5. From the ready position, one shot fired on two targets set 3 yards apart. Run twice. Time for both runs added together cannot exceed 3.30 seconds.

6. Face 180 degrees away from the target. From concealment, turn, draw, and fire one round on each of three targets. Run twice, turning to the left on one run, and to the right on the other run. Time for both runs added together cannot exceed 7.0 seconds.

7. From the ready position, one shot then drop to one knee and execute a reload from slide lock, then one shot on the target. Run twice. Time for both runs added together cannot exceed 8.0 seconds.


Scoring:

Each shot within the white on the pictured target is multiplied by 5 to yield the number of points. Each shot outside the "bottle" or that touches the line is multiplied by 2 to yield the number of points. Anything that misses the shilouette is a miss and gives zero points.

Maximum score of 150 points. 135 points and meeting all time standards required to pass.



....so can you do it?

My run at the class resulted in a score of 139. I was over by .12 seconds on drill 4. (Had a malfunction) When I can find my sheet I'll post my full scores. Those brave enough can do the same if they like.

As promised, my times:

Drill - Run 1 - Run 2


1 - 1.47 - 1.63

2 - 0.87 - 0.80

3 - 1.67


4 - 2.64 - 3.98

5 - 1.16 - 1.07

6 - 2.50 - 2.51

7 - 3.23 - 3.63


Total score 139: PASS
Time standards: FAILURE, drill 4. Total time 6.62 seconds.
Comment: Over by .12 seconds due to a malfunction on run 2.

Equipment used:

Pistol: S&W M&P 9mm
Holster: Safariland ALS belt holster carried strong side on the belt.
Mags: Carried in Raven Concealment double magazine holder
Concealment: Light Oakley casual jacket


Please post your results in a similar format, that way we can compare.
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington

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Papi4baby
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:28:40 AM
[Last Edit: 4/19/2010 11:30:10 AM by Papi4baby]
That one shows FBI target, this link shows FAMS. Witch one is it.

http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=LTR-IICB-AM

Either one, looks challenging. Would need practice to get the hang of it. 7 yards is not far should be no problem. Just need to be fast. And since is concealed that could be a problem.
DangerJ
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:30:45 AM
Nope!

I could get close though.
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John_Wayne777
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:32:11 AM
Originally Posted By Papi4baby:
That one shows FBI target, this link shows FAMS. Witch one is it.

http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=LTR-IICB-AM


To the best of my knowledge it's the target pictured in my post. Remember that quals have evolved in the FAMS since the old days (by "evolved" I mean dumbed down somewhat) and the target you linked to may be what they use for the current qual.
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington

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mcculver5
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:40:27 AM
I'd take a run at it... doubtful that I'd pass on runs 1- .... uhm ...... 15ish.




Wait, can I use a .22?


Please?
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goodmedicine
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:41:40 AM
I think I could get close now.

With practice, maybe could down the road.



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Bacchus
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:46:28 AM
Interesting thread topic.
Drsalee
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:52:38 AM
What is the "Run" part?
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Papi4baby
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Posted: 4/19/2010 12:01:27 PM
[Last Edit: 4/19/2010 12:02:11 PM by Papi4baby]
Originally Posted By Drsalee:
What is the "Run" part?


Repeat same course of fire i believe.



I think the biggest issue, at least for me is doing this from a concealed configuration.
autumnsong
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Posted: 4/19/2010 12:09:35 PM
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John_Wayne777
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Posted: 4/19/2010 12:20:52 PM
[Last Edit: 4/19/2010 12:23:05 PM by John_Wayne777]
Originally Posted By Drsalee:
What is the "Run" part?


Two runs means you run that drill twice.


I think the biggest issue, at least for me is doing this from a concealed configuration.


Getting a shot on target from the draw in < 1.65 seconds twice from concealment is certainly a challenge for a lot of folks. So is doing a ~ 2 second reload. The difficulty is ameliorated somewhat by the BAT....Big Ass Target.
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington

http://www.tacticalimpact.tv/
ToyCop
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Posted: 4/19/2010 12:53:17 PM
I can do it.
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ToyCop
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Posted: 4/19/2010 12:55:24 PM

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By Papi4baby:
That one shows FBI target, this link shows FAMS. Witch one is it.

http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=LTR-IICB-AM


To the best of my knowledge it's the target pictured in my post. Remember that quals have evolved in the FAMS since the old days (by "evolved" I mean dumbed down somewhat) and the target you linked to may be what they use for the current qual.
The FBI Q is used for the TPC and the Transtar is used for the FLETC PPC.

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SHIVAN
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Posted: 4/19/2010 12:57:41 PM
I can shoot the hostage target perfectly, with every shot.
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John_Wayne777
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Posted: 4/19/2010 1:36:52 PM
Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
I can shoot the hostage target perfectly, with every shot.


Remember that after you shoot the first hostage the rest of them just become witnesses...so game on.
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington

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AJE
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Posted: 4/19/2010 1:39:21 PM
I'm confident I could do it. I ran some of esentially the same courses except for #6 and #7 and didn't have much problems.

When I went through the instructor course for handgun/shotgun we did several of the "one shot quals" where you start from the holster, draw and shoot one shot, and your score depends on the tenth of a second you finished.
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Posted: 4/19/2010 1:39:26 PM
This is very interesting. Tagging it for future range trips.
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DangerJ
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Posted: 4/19/2010 1:42:16 PM
Just thought I would add: I am going to be trying these drills on my next range trip. Will post an AAR.
"The only way to bring him into understanding is by putting the pain on him and understand that everybody understands pain."
Lowflyer
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Posted: 4/19/2010 1:45:13 PM
[Last Edit: 4/19/2010 1:46:21 PM by Lowflyer]
Ive done it before, but I was not using a Sig P229 in 357 Sig like they do. I would have to practice to do it again
xdoctor
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Posted: 4/19/2010 2:01:00 PM
Nope, I'd be over time on almost all of them.
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John_Wayne777
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Posted: 4/19/2010 2:11:05 PM
Keep in mind that back in the day the FAMS had to show up and shoot that qual cold before every international flight.
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington

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ak_
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Posted: 4/19/2010 2:16:33 PM
Originally Posted By Papi4baby:
Originally Posted By Drsalee:
What is the "Run" part?


Repeat same course of fire i believe.





Oh! So they're not sprinting back and forth down the length of the plane shooting?

This sounds like less fun now...
homeyclaus
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Posted: 4/19/2010 2:31:27 PM
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Keep in mind that back in the day the FAMS had to show up and shoot that qual cold before every international flight.


Is there a range at every airport? Even close to one?

While I am sure they did their qual drills often, and the two (new school) air marshals I know are pretty darn good with their pistols, I doubt the old schoolers practiced THAT much. Is there a reference to that anywhere?

I think I'd get close on the quals, but won't likely pass the first try - for some reason I think I did an IDPA match that did much of those with movement. I certainly want to see someone do that with their Sig in a Galco Skyops holster, and make that time.
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TexasDoubleTap
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Posted: 4/19/2010 2:42:00 PM
Tagged for cool drills to try next time I go shoot.
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TexasDoubleTap
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Posted: 4/19/2010 2:42:51 PM
[Last Edit: 4/19/2010 2:51:02 PM by TexasDoubleTap]


It's a disease I swear.
Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, So Study Hard and Be Evil....

Vote for the best, prepare for the worst.

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John_Wayne777
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Posted: 4/19/2010 2:43:18 PM
Originally Posted By homeyclaus:
Is there a range at every airport? Even close to one?


Somewhere on the premises of every international airport, at least.


While I am sure they did their qual drills often, and the two (new school) air marshals I know are pretty darn good with their pistols, I doubt the old schoolers practiced THAT much. Is there a reference to that anywhere?


I have that on the word of a guy who oversaw the FAMS handgun contract.

It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington

http://www.tacticalimpact.tv/
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