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mexicanstyle
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:29:22 PM
Not necessarily "for sale" right now... Just in general...

I thought that I had heard something about there only being 3 floating around the U.S. , but couldn't find any data to back up this subject... Help would be greatly apprecitated... Thanks...
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TXGunnersM8
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:43:43 PM
How every many it is, they'll cost more than my house.
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tony_k
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:45:03 PM
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 3:50:00 PM by tony_k]
Transferable factory guns?

Zero.

FN did not introduce the Minimi until '74 or '75, so it could not legally be imported for civilian ownership.

There are rumors that someone may have cut up one or more into parts kits, imported the kits, then reassembled them as new transferable MGs.

But Bubba Naess, who has been in the MG biz since John Moses Browning was alive, and Jeff Zimba of Small Arms Review say they have never seen one, and believe they do not exist as transferables. These guys are The MG gurus and I believe them.

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jayhanfosho
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:48:12 PM
Pretty sure there is only a couple (if not one). I know KAC has one.
_
tony_k
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:50:31 PM
Originally Posted By jayhanfosho:
Pretty sure there is only a couple (if not one). I know KAC has one.

Nope. Reed's 249 is a presample.
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tony_k
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:53:40 PM
FWIW, there are a lot of presamples out there. Dealers can keep them when their SOT expires, but can only sell them to other dealers - they can't be inherited.

When a retired SOT sells a presample, it must transfer via a $200-tax-due Form 4 (because Form 3s may only be used with both transferor and transferee hold valid current SOTs).

So yes, you can find M249s that transferred on Form 4's. But they are not transferable to individuals, only to current SOT holders.
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osprey21
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:53:55 PM

Originally Posted By tony_k:
Transferable factory guns?

Zero.

FN did not introduce the Minimi until '74 or '75, so it could not legally be imported for civilian ownership.

There are rumors that someone may have cut up one or more into parts kits, imported the kits, then reassembled them as new transferable MGs.

But Bubba Naess, who has been in the MG biz since John Moses Browning was alive, and Jeff Zimba of Small Arms Review say they have never seen one, and believe they do not exist as transferables. These guys are The MG gurus and I believe them.


Amen to all of that.




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stanprophet09
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Posted: 12/18/2009 7:29:03 PM
I was watching an auction about 2 years ago where FNH was selling a transferable m249, the story was that they manufactured 3 here in the us registered before the cutoff and sold 2, and they were sitting on the third one. If I can remember correctly the thing sold for around a quarter million. But it was a while ago and I do not know if the story was true.
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singtoe
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Posted: 12/18/2009 7:43:05 PM
Originally Posted By tony_k:
FWIW, there are a lot of presamples out there. Dealers can keep them when their SOT expires, but can only sell them to other dealers - they can't be inherited.

When a retired SOT sells a presample, it must transfer via a $200-tax-due Form 4 (because Form 3s may only be used with both transferor and transferee hold valid current SOTs).

So yes, you can find M249s that transferred on Form 4's. But they are not transferable to individuals, only to current SOT holders.


For an SOT to get a presample, do they still need a letter from the law enforcement agency for demostration purposes?
RenegadeX
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Posted: 12/18/2009 7:45:14 PM
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 7:50:25 PM by RenegadeX]
I am pretty sure LMO had one for sale. Maybe $200K or so if I recall.

ETA:

<big>Subguns.com NFA Firearms Discussion Archive</big>

<big><big>There can be only one....</big></big>

Posted By: <big>Dan Shea</big> <lmo4mgs@aol.com>
Date: 11/16/06 13:40


In Response To: No (Cobb Hill Firearms Inc Pa and NY)

There is ONE fully transferable factory original M249.

M16s that magically turned into M249s don't count. Dealer sample M249s that some examiner forgot to stamp don't count. The M249 and the Minime were designed and made after 1968, so none from Belgium could have come in the country before then and been legit, original transferable guns.

I have the factory records on this. There is one transferable. The rest were destroyed. I had that gun, I had a letter from ATF declaring it to be transferable, and I sold that gun a long time ago. It is presently for sale by the owner for $550,000.

Every rumored transferable M249 that I have heard of has been a dead end- either a non-stamped dealer sample- at least one a year that someone calls and says is transferable, they pay 100grand for it after I tell them it's not transferable, they call later when it comes back with "Needs a demo letter" and the guy has already blown the 100grand and can't refund. Once a year that happens.

Factory serial numbers that are a good guideline on M249s....
FN00xxxx means Belgian made, pre-86 dealer sample that was imported by either Guns South in the 16 or 19 they brought in or one of the approx 100 that FNMI imported,


Cxxxxx means commercial US Factory made at FNMI- all after 1986 and all are post 86 dealer samples.....

E000xx is either one of a couple pre samples imported for Engineering at FNMI in 1984, or is the ONE tranfserable M249 made at FNMI in 1984 - that is the only one that remains.

There is a rumor of a legit class 2 registering two cut up receivers that he rewelded back before May 1986, but every time someone brags about them, they don't have any contact or proof that these exist. It would be nice to see them.

Where are the 8 that you have kept track of? Do they fit the above profile of original factory serial numbers or are they all class 2 mfg made guns? I know everyone WANTS there to be some transferables, but the above is a good sitrep on this.


ETA2:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=22&t=288543&page=1
tony_k
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Posted: 12/18/2009 10:47:38 PM
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 10:48:56 PM by tony_k]
If Dan Shea says there is one, but only one, and he has the factory records ... well, there you have it.

Wonder what Jeff Z and Bubba think now?
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ds762
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Posted: 12/19/2009 12:07:35 AM
I'm fairly positive that years ago I saw transferrable DLO mfg'd Minimi receivers for sale.. not quite the same .. but ..
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tony_k
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Posted: 12/19/2009 12:27:36 AM
[Last Edit: 12/19/2009 12:27:46 AM by tony_k]
Originally Posted By ds762:
I'm fairly positive that years ago I saw transferrable DLO mfg'd Minimi receivers for sale.. not quite the same .. but ..

I know that Doug made a bunch of M240 sideplates, but never heard of him making 249's.....
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Posted: 12/19/2009 7:45:50 AM
Originally Posted By singtoe:
Originally Posted By tony_k:
FWIW, there are a lot of presamples out there. Dealers can keep them when their SOT expires, but can only sell them to other dealers - they can't be inherited.

When a retired SOT sells a presample, it must transfer via a $200-tax-due Form 4 (because Form 3s may only be used with both transferor and transferee hold valid current SOTs).

So yes, you can find M249s that transferred on Form 4's. But they are not transferable to individuals, only to current SOT holders.


For an SOT to get a presample, do they still need a letter from the law enforcement agency for demostration purposes?


If you have a valid FFL/SOT you do not need a Demo Letter for a pre 86 Dealer sample
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jbntex
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Posted: 12/19/2009 5:49:04 PM
Originally Posted By VarmitSniper:
Originally Posted By singtoe:
Originally Posted By tony_k:
FWIW, there are a lot of presamples out there. Dealers can keep them when their SOT expires, but can only sell them to other dealers - they can't be inherited.

When a retired SOT sells a presample, it must transfer via a $200-tax-due Form 4 (because Form 3s may only be used with both transferor and transferee hold valid current SOTs).

So yes, you can find M249s that transferred on Form 4's. But they are not transferable to individuals, only to current SOT holders.


For an SOT to get a presample, do they still need a letter from the law enforcement agency for demostration purposes?


If you have a valid FFL/SOT you do not need a Demo Letter for a pre 86 Dealer sample


No you dont, there is no demo letter required for a pre-86 dealer sample.

Dan still has some pre-sample 249s for sale. I beleive for around $45,000.


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mexicanstyle
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Posted: 12/19/2009 6:51:51 PM
Hm... I was at an individual's house last week, and he showed me his M249, and his form 4 that it was purchased on... I guess I need to check the serial number and see if it begin's with the FN00XXXX or whatever the example was that someone posted earlier... I guess it is possible that it was converted(?) , but it seemed pretty authentic to me... I will be sure to report back...
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Posted: 12/19/2009 7:31:03 PM
Originally Posted By mexicanstyle:
Hm... I was at an individual's house last week, and he showed me his M249, and his form 4 that it was purchased on... I guess I need to check the serial number and see if it begin's with the FN00XXXX or whatever the example was that someone posted earlier... I guess it is possible that it was converted(?) , but it seemed pretty authentic to me... I will be sure to report back...


Or it may be better to just read the above info and NOT report back...
mexicanstyle
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Posted: 12/19/2009 10:43:02 PM
[Last Edit: 12/19/2009 10:49:08 PM by mexicanstyle]
Originally Posted By cosmos556:
Originally Posted By mexicanstyle:
Hm... I was at an individual's house last week, and he showed me his M249, and his form 4 that it was purchased on... I guess I need to check the serial number and see if it begin's with the FN00XXXX or whatever the example was that someone posted earlier... I guess it is possible that it was converted(?) , but it seemed pretty authentic to me... I will be sure to report back...


Or it may be better to just read the above info and NOT report back...


Um... I am fairly certain that this guy is legit as he has MANY stamps (probably 15+), and is a police officer... I saw the forms myself, and am in no doubt of their authenticity... I am just thinking that it may not be a REAL M249 and perhaps something else... Who knows...

eta: after reading the above I wonder if it could possibly be that ONE magical gun that he owns... hmmmmmmmm....
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RenegadeX
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Posted: 12/19/2009 10:51:05 PM

Originally Posted By mexicanstyle:
I am just thinking that it may not be a REAL M249 and perhaps something else... Who knows...


Hopefully not made by SWD.
tony_k
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Posted: 12/19/2009 11:36:38 PM
Originally Posted By mexicanstyle:
Originally Posted By cosmos556:
Originally Posted By mexicanstyle:
Hm... I was at an individual's house last week, and he showed me his M249, and his form 4 that it was purchased on... I guess I need to check the serial number and see if it begin's with the FN00XXXX or whatever the example was that someone posted earlier... I guess it is possible that it was converted(?) , but it seemed pretty authentic to me... I will be sure to report back...


Or it may be better to just read the above info and NOT report back...


Um... I am fairly certain that this guy is legit as he has MANY stamps (probably 15+), and is a police officer... I saw the forms myself, and am in no doubt of their authenticity... I am just thinking that it may not be a REAL M249 and perhaps something else... Who knows...

eta: after reading the above I wonder if it could possibly be that ONE magical gun that he owns... hmmmmmmmm....

Well, if that "friend" had the spare cash available to pay $550,000 in 2006 for a toy and yet be willing to sell it for $800 today ... you may be right.

Though I do think a sanity check is in order.
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mexicanstyle
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Posted: 12/20/2009 7:42:41 AM
Originally Posted By tony_k:
Originally Posted By mexicanstyle:
Originally Posted By cosmos556:
Originally Posted By mexicanstyle:
Hm... I was at an individual's house last week, and he showed me his M249, and his form 4 that it was purchased on... I guess I need to check the serial number and see if it begin's with the FN00XXXX or whatever the example was that someone posted earlier... I guess it is possible that it was converted(?) , but it seemed pretty authentic to me... I will be sure to report back...


Or it may be better to just read the above info and NOT report back...


Um... I am fairly certain that this guy is legit as he has MANY stamps (probably 15+), and is a police officer... I saw the forms myself, and am in no doubt of their authenticity... I am just thinking that it may not be a REAL M249 and perhaps something else... Who knows...

eta: after reading the above I wonder if it could possibly be that ONE magical gun that he owns... hmmmmmmmm....

Well, if that "friend" had the spare cash available to pay $550,000 in 2006 for a toy and yet be willing to sell it for $800 today ... you may be right.

Though I do think a sanity check is in order.


hm... He does he have that kind of money... But I don' think that he ever wants to get rid of it, so if it IS the only real M249 that wouldn't bode well for the rest of the world...
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Posted: 12/20/2009 8:51:53 AM
Originally Posted By mexicanstyle:
Originally Posted By tony_k:
Originally Posted By mexicanstyle:
Originally Posted By cosmos556:
Originally Posted By mexicanstyle:
Hm... I was at an individual's house last week, and he showed me his M249, and his form 4 that it was purchased on... I guess I need to check the serial number and see if it begin's with the FN00XXXX or whatever the example was that someone posted earlier... I guess it is possible that it was converted(?) , but it seemed pretty authentic to me... I will be sure to report back...


Or it may be better to just read the above info and NOT report back...


Um... I am fairly certain that this guy is legit as he has MANY stamps (probably 15+), and is a police officer... I saw the forms myself, and am in no doubt of their authenticity... I am just thinking that it may not be a REAL M249 and perhaps something else... Who knows...

eta: after reading the above I wonder if it could possibly be that ONE magical gun that he owns... hmmmmmmmm....

Well, if that "friend" had the spare cash available to pay $550,000 in 2006 for a toy and yet be willing to sell it for $800 today ... you may be right.

Though I do think a sanity check is in order.


hm... He does he have that kind of money... But I don' think that he ever wants to get rid of it, so if it IS the only real M249 that wouldn't bode well for the rest of the world...


What police department pays so much that their officers can plunk half a million $ of disposible income on an MG, not to mention 15 other MG's?

Also, what if your friend's 249 is actually a post sample that got accidently transferred as a transferable. You go posting his serial # info on the internet, ATF figures out it is not legit and they come confiscate it. What kind of friend would you be then?
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Posted: 12/23/2009 12:26:16 AM
I too talked to Dan Shea about this. At least one does exist....
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Posted: 12/26/2009 10:50:31 AM
Originally Posted By mexicanstyle:
Hm... I was at an individual's house last week, and he showed me his M249, and his form 4 that it was purchased on... I guess I need to check the serial number and see if it begin's with the FN00XXXX or whatever the example was that someone posted earlier... I guess it is possible that it was converted(?) , but it seemed pretty authentic to me... I will be sure to report back...


Maybe your friend has a South Korean Daewoe K3 light machine gun?
Magoo6541
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Posted: 12/26/2009 11:35:58 AM
Originally Posted By CAR-AR-M16:
snip......

What police department pays so much that their officers can plunk half a million $ of disposible income on an MG, not to mention 15 other MG's?

Also, what if your friend's 249 is actually a post sample that got accidently transferred as a transferable. You go posting his serial # info on the internet, ATF figures out it is not legit and they come confiscate it. What kind of friend would you be then?


There are a lot of people who have lots of money, or their family has a lot of money and they just choose to have a laid back job. I have a friend in particular whose family is worth billions. The family rule is that if they want a piece of it, they have to work. Firefighters don't get paid a whole lot but we do get lots of time off. Perfect for someone like that.

Just because you're working at a job that doesn't pay much doesn't mean you don't have money.
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Posted: 12/26/2009 12:43:15 PM
Originally Posted By Magoo6541:
Originally Posted By CAR-AR-M16:
snip......

What police department pays so much that their officers can plunk half a million $ of disposible income on an MG, not to mention 15 other MG's?

Also, what if your friend's 249 is actually a post sample that got accidently transferred as a transferable. You go posting his serial # info on the internet, ATF figures out it is not legit and they come confiscate it. What kind of friend would you be then?


There are a lot of people who have lots of money, or their family has a lot of money and they just choose to have a laid back job. I have a friend in particular whose family is worth billions. The family rule is that if they want a piece of it, they have to work. Firefighters don't get paid a whole lot but we do get lots of time off. Perfect for someone like that.

Just because you're working at a job that doesn't pay much doesn't mean you don't have money.


And its funny how people always judge like that. I'm at the other end of the scale. I work in restaurants. Its not a glamor job. But you know what? It can pay good. Really good. When I was working in Boston, I was making a base salary of $62k a year, and could earn another $24k depending on sales and food costs. I was 22 when I got hired on up there. To each their own.
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