Author
Message
randyf
Offline
Posts: 123
Feedback: 0% (0)
Posted: 12/6/2009 9:42:53 AM
[Last Edit: 12/6/2009 9:43:21 AM by randyf]
I copied this from the 450 Bushmaster forum - I was surprised on the varirations from one brand of primer to another brand, also the problems the shooter had with Wolf.

Anybody tried something like this with 223/5.56 loads?
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Using a previously worked up load of 30.5 grs or LG, Winchester Small Rifle Primers, Hornady cases and a resized 300 gr. hornady 45-70 bullet,
I used the 300 gr bullets because that is what I had on hand. 5 shot strings

1. Winchester –– Average Veloctiy - 1892 FPS, ES –– 56 fps, SD –– 25 fps (group size 1 1/8 inches)
2. Wolf Small rifle Magnum –– Average Velocity - 1749 fps, ES –– 105 fps, Sd –– 45 fps. I had one misfire and all rounds were HANG FIRES. Thought I was shooting a flintlock! Group size 2 inches
3. CCI 450's –– Average Veloctiy –– 1734 fps, ES –– 112 fps, Sd –– 48 fps. Group size 2 inches
4. Remington 7 1/2's –– Average Velocity –– 1795 fps, Es –– 89 fps, SD –– 32 fps. Group size 1 1/2 inches.

The hang fires with the wolf primers were disconcerting! Note that the WSR primers beat the others by more than 100 fps.
AeroE
Member
Offline
Posts: 24178
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/6/2009 10:28:21 AM
I have done this. The ES is not necessarily an indicator of accuracy at the ranges .223 Rem is generally used for.

Hang fires are a no go, and I wouldn't try more than two or three cartridges before I abandoned the load and pulled it down.

It's true, Obama is the Leader of Fools deluded to believe, "Everything is going to change now".
As for me, I will embrace what is Right more tightly than ever.


1 lbf = 32.174 lbm-ft/sec^2
dryflash3
Global Warming Hoax Skeptic
Offline
Posts: 8004
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/6/2009 10:54:44 AM
In 9mm, 45 ACP, 7.62 x 39 and 223, I have not experienced any problems with Wolf primers.

Or any other brand of primer.

My friend loads 45-70 with my equipment, he uses Win LR. No problems.

Proper primer seating is the key to avoiding primer woes.

Seat primers .002 below flush, and you will be GTG.
Selling agent for Algores carbon credit scam.

Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other.


sdshootermsd
Offline
Posts: 14
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/6/2009 3:01:37 PM
Wolf primes seem to seat a little harder (tighter maybe).

Make surre they are bottomed out in the primer pocket.

If not inconsetain ing. may result.

sdshooter.............
backpack
Offline
Posts: 83
Feedback: 100% (3)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/6/2009 3:17:04 PM
Ive had 10 hang fires and 20 duds with wolf primers and have never had an issue with any of the others.
I still put up moa groups at 100yds with them but they have been scary.
peligro113
Constipated People Don't Give A Crap
Offline
Posts: 411
Feedback: 100% (138)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/6/2009 3:24:29 PM
I use wolf primer exclusively in my loads and I have never had a problem with them.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world"
Brander
Member
Offline
Posts: 341
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/7/2009 12:24:51 AM
I have used a lot of Wolf primers, and never had a single hang fire, misfire, or any other type of problem with them. As already said, they do fit a little tighter (which is good in my book), so make sure they are seated all the way.
txcas
Member
Offline
Posts: 411
Feedback: 100% (28)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/7/2009 8:16:50 AM
Originally Posted By Brander:
I have used a lot of Wolf primers, and never had a single hang fire, misfire, or any other type of problem with them. As already said, they do fit a little tighter (which is good in my book), so make sure they are seated all the way.


+1 You might have a bad batch of Wolf primers. Call them.
Compromise is always wrong if it means sacrifing a principle.
NVGdude
Offline
Posts: 5347
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/7/2009 11:04:13 AM
[Last Edit: 12/7/2009 11:05:00 AM by NVGdude]
My first thought is improperly seated primers.
ma96782
Member
Offline
Posts: 6913
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/7/2009 11:17:31 AM
[Last Edit: 12/7/2009 11:18:54 AM by ma96782]
I was surprised on the varirations from one brand of primer to another brand, also the problems the shooter had with Wolf.



Wolf aside.

As for the variation.............How do changing various components affect chamber pressure and velocity?

www.frfrogspad.com/miscelld.htm#components

Note: These results were typical under the conditions tested. Your firearm and ammunition may behave differently so don't use this as loading data.

Aloha, Mark






"Guns don't kill people......the Government does."

Dale Dribble
FriscoPete
Offline
Posts: 697
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/7/2009 11:20:14 AM
[Last Edit: 12/7/2009 11:23:37 AM by FriscoPete]
I was teaching my son how to reload - and when we went and shot his reloads we had some failures to fire. This had nothing to do with the brand of primer, but rather the fact that he didn't seat them all the way to the bottom. Priming was done on press, which doesn't have a lot of feel, and come to find out, he was worried that using too much force would set the primer off. Therefore he didn't seat them deep enough, whereas a person with more experience knows what it takes.

So couple some inexperience with harder to seat primers and I can easily see why you could get some failures to fire.

Of course a bad batch, weak firing pin spring, or other factors could be an issue as well. You really can't just brand all Wolf primers as categorically bad, when others seem to have no problem with them.

Checking the batch of Wolf primers visually for anvil issues during the primer flip operation would be a good idea to see if there are some bad ones in there. I know that we normally don't do this, but in the case of Wolf, it might be good insurance - or would eliminate a possible cause of problems.

I also agree that low ES doesn't exactly translate to good accuracy on paper.
randyf
Offline
Posts: 124
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/7/2009 3:01:08 PM
Originally Posted By ma96782:
I was surprised on the varirations from one brand of primer to another brand, also the problems the shooter had with Wolf.



Wolf aside.

As for the variation.............How do changing various components affect chamber pressure and velocity?

www.frfrogspad.com/miscelld.htm#components

Note: These results were typical under the conditions tested. Your firearm and ammunition may behave differently so don't use this as loading data.
Aloha, Mark

Is the variation in velocity with different primes due to one brand of primer being "hotter" than the other?
I was surprised to see 150 fps average difference from one primer brand to another......Win. 1892fps - CCI 1734fps.










ma96782
Member
Offline
Posts: 6917
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/7/2009 6:39:03 PM
[Last Edit: 12/7/2009 6:52:21 PM by ma96782]
Is the variation in velocity with different primes due to one brand of primer being "hotter" than the other?
I was surprised to see 150 fps average difference from one primer brand to another......Win. 1892fps - CCI 1734fps.


There is brand vs brand variations...........that's a given.

Then, variation...............as the primers aren't made by a machine.

Note this article...............

From: bartb@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Bart Bobbitt)
Subject: Re: Accuracy via microprocessor control ?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

J. Spencer (J.M.Spencer@newcastle.ac.uk) wrote in response to my comments
preceded by : #:

: #In reality, primers are more responsible
: #for velocity variations than powder
: #is.

: How, and why?

Because of the way the priming mixture is prepared and put in pellet moulds
then put in cups, anviled and sealed.

: If the manufacturers can get powder to burn consistently,
: and we can get consistent charges so that their effect is minimal, why
: can't the manufacturers produce consistent primers?

Primer mixture creation and processing is almost a `black magic' operation.
Few folks can uniformly put the putty-like substance in a totally
homogeneous form that's very uniformly mixed.

: And a related question: how do know
: that it *is* the primers, how has it been measured?

Measured by velocity standard deviation, using various primer makes/types
with different powder charges show that primers have the greatest effect
on uniforming velocities.

: That is one variable which we can eliminate, can't we?

Yes. Seat the bullet to where it pushes back into the case when it jams
against the leade as the bolt is closed. That uniforms bullet jump as
leade/throat wear lengthens this part of the barrel. You may need to
increase the powder charge weight by about one-tenth of a grain every
1000 or so rounds to keep velocity at the same level; otherwise it will
drop several fps as the leade/throat dimension gets greater.

: #Some powders tend to cause more muzzle velocity variations than others.
: #Extruded powder tends to be the most uniform; both benchrest and highpower
: #competitors favor this type over ball powder for this reason.

: It's just a bugger that it doesn't meter as well, eh Bart? :-)

Yes, but a charge weight spread of up to two-tenths of a grain doesn't seem
to matter much.

: #When the most mild and uniform primers are used, muzzle velocity standard
: #deviations can be kept to 5 to 7 fps. That's a muzzle velocity spread
: #of about 16 to 22 fps; darn well good enough for even the most demanding
: #shooter.

: Really? I'm genuinely surprised at that (not to imply I'm skeptical,
: just surprised). Which primers do you recommend (for 243 and 30-06 if
: it's relevant)?

If you can afford 'em, use RWS 5341 primers. Otherwise, Remington 9-1/2
standards are also very mild and work very well indeed.

BB
__________________________

From: bartb@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Bart Bobbitt)
Subject: Re: [RELOADING] What makes Bench Rest Primers special?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

`Benchrest' primers are typically more uniform in their ignition
characteristics than `standard' primers. The process of mixing the
lead styphnate (the explosive), glass frit (the microscopic glass
particles that act as micro-anvils for the styphnate to compress
against) and a couple of other things is a kind of `black magic.'
About two quarts of this priming mixture is mixed together for each
lot of primers. Getting the mixture homogenous (uniform percentages)
throughout the gooey mixture is difficult. This mixture is spread
on a plate with little recesses in it that are the shape of the
primer pellet. Getting exactly the same amount in each little round,
deep hole is also a type of `black magic.' The mixture is much like
putty and a large putty-knife like tool is used to force the mixture
into each hole where it's left to dry. Then the dried primer pellets
are punched out and put in primer cups, topped with a sealer, and
finally the three-legged anvil is pressed in place.

Interestingly enough, some folks do a better job of mixing and spreading
the mixture than others. Within each lot of several thousand primers,
there's bound to be differences in the ignition characteristics from one
primer to the next. As more care is needed to make `uniform' primers,
they usually cost more.

By uniformity, I mean the consistancy of velocity they produce. Velocity
tests of the bullet is about the best test of primer uniformity. Some
very uniform lots of primers will produce a velocity spread of only 15 fps.
At the other end of the spectrum are primers that produce velocity spreads
of 100 fps, or more. Some folks have tested primer uniformity by shooting
BBs from a primed case (no powder) in a 17 caliber barrel; primers that
produce low velocity spreads with BBs do the same with powder and bullets.
Uniform primers tend to produce more uniform pressure curves, too.

Alas, not all the `benchrest' primers are as good as they're marketed to
be. Many times a standard primer will be more uniform than benchrest ones.
And some makes of benchrest primers aren't as uniform as another make of
standard primer. Even some standard primer brands are more uniform than
any benchrest brand. Some benchrest primers are hotter than their standard
versions for the same make.

In many accuracy situations, a milder, standard primer will produce better
groups than a hotter benchrest primer.

BB




For me..........I just expect to see variation.

Various lots and brands need to be tested to ensure YOUR results.

Then, there isn't anything that says that things can't change over time. So, just cause brand X works for you today, it won't mean that brand X will ALWAYS be the best.

Aloha, Mark







"Guns don't kill people......the Government does."

Dale Dribble