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MRW
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Posted: 10/2/2006 8:29:54 PM
[Last Edit: 10/2/2006 8:55:51 PM by MRW]
This topic seems to come up once a week, so a tack might be worthwhile.

It is my contention that the stock saigas do NOT need a US parts swap conversion to take high capacity mags, PROVIDED that no other conversion work is done.

If you add any other "evil" feature, like a pistol grip, IN ADDITION to the ability to take high capacity mags, you must do a US parts swap to make it a "US made" rifle rather than an import.

Please feel free to discuss the issue here, and keep in mind I am not, nor have I ever been, an ATF agent, nor do I pretend to play one on the internet. I make no claims of legal authority, just logical observations on existing law.

If you are a team member, here is the original discussion that now rests in the archive

89 Ban and High Capacity Saigas

Here is the most relevant part of the thread above


The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that I'm right about not needing US parts for Saigas that take high capacity mags. Follow me on this

The 89 ban goes into effect. The ban says:

--> a semi-auto copy of a military rifle that takes high capacity mags
is forbidden to have:

attached bipod
Bayo-lug
night sights
grenade launcher
flashhider or threaded muzzle
folding or telescoping stock
pistolgrip.


But it is an import ban only, not an assembly ban. Once stateside, a person can add all those features back on (stupid law )

That was why they invented the tumbhole stock for the Maks and hungarian rifles and so forth. They fit the first part of the ban- they were semi-auto compies of military guns AND they took high capacity mags, BUT they didn't have any of the secondary features above, the thumbhole was their way around the pistol grip.

So the ATF comes out in '90 with a modification that says you cannot assemble a rifle that is banned from importation unless you have the imported parts count reduced to 10 or less, and they provide a specific parts list. They then say several yars later (I don't remember when, but it was years) that the thumbhole is in fact a pistol grip, and so now no more thumholes. But a LOT of rifles came in with thumbholes, rifles that were semiauto and took highcap mags, and they were, and are, legal because at the time of importation, the gun did not have any of the secondary features.

After the tumbhole ban, there seemed to be a hesitation on how to import a highcap AK. At this time the single stack guns came in. They do not fall under the ban because they don't qualify for the FIRST condition of the ban- they don't take high capacity mags. So they can have a pistolgrip and all that other stuff (although they ONLY have the pistol grip, like they were afraid to put the other stuff on) and NOT need US parts
BUT NOBODY BUYS THEM
So they then figure out that they can work the US parts angle. They import Romanian SARs and swap out enough parts to make them a US made gun (that now falls under the 94 ban. after september, a folding stock, bayo lug, and flashider will be legal on all SARs). I also think that the Egyptian Maddis fall in this category, but they require US parts in the magazine, so you have to be careful dwhat kind of mag you use (stupid stupid law )

This is where we are right now.

My point is this: High cap STOCK Saigas (no pistol grip) fall in the same area of the ban that the original thumbhole AKs did. They take high caps and are semi-auto, BUT HAVE NONE OF THE SECONDARY FEATURES, and there's no way for the ATF to be "technical" about the meaning of one of those features like they did with the thumhole/pistolgrip. THE SAIGA HAS NONE. If the thumbholes could be legally imported under the original understanding that a thumbhole was not a pistolgrip, even though they were semi-auto and high cap, then certainly the current Siaga can be legally fitted with the ability to accept high cap mags if none of the other features are added. The tumbholes WERE legally imported, LOTS of them, and therefore it is legal to have a high-cap stock Saiga. The ATF has demonstrated that by originally approving the importation of the tumbholes. The ATF, as much as they may like to think, does not have the ability to simply make up the rules as they go along and change them willy nilly whenever they feel like it. They have to follow the rule of law and be consistent in their application of it. If they approved the thumbholes then, then most certainly the high cap stock Saiga is okay now

Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out!

General education shold not be the mere training of the hands to work, but training of the mind to properly reason. http://www.marshill.edu/trivium.htm
savage17
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Posted: 12/4/2006 8:37:58 PM
To convert an Ak47 mag to fit a saiga. Take a welding rod that of the same diameter as the gap on the front of a mag. Cut it to the width of the gap. Hold it in place with vice-grips and braze it.
On the back side of the mag, The tang that locks in the mag, There is a flat side on top and a angled side. Take a dremel and slowly grind the angled side and keep trying to lock it in the gun. When it locks in, Remove it and paint it black. If you don't paint it, It will rust where you heated it. The whole process takes very little time.

With this mag, You need no bullet guide.
savage17
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Posted: 12/4/2006 8:38:36 PM
[Last Edit: 12/4/2006 8:40:19 PM by savage17]
Double post
five2one
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Posted: 12/15/2006 7:42:26 PM


Thank you for tacking this thread.

Would someone please educate me on the 922r, Saiga12, folding stocks/pistol grips, and 10 round mags? I have simple understanding of 922r -- that some imported guns (rifles, shotguns) have to have x number of US made parts if it has certain evil features. But I really don't know any more than that.

I have a standard Saiga 12 as it came from CDNN 3 or 4 years back. No pistol grip, 5 round mags, and a threaded muzzle. I'm planning on sending it to Tromix in the near future and they talk about making it 922r compliant.

But I've also seen a folding stock/pistol grip for sale (like the one below) and different opinions as to whether or not you would also have to swap in more US made parts.



In a few days I'll have those nifty AGP 10 round mags. Does it matter if I use 5 round or 10 round mags and the pistolgrip/folding stock?
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est

I am Five2one from GA, not fivetoone from GA.
MRW
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Posted: 12/15/2006 9:07:23 PM
[Last Edit: 12/15/2006 9:08:26 PM by MRW]
As far as I know, the 89 ban did not address shotguns, but maybe it did.

During the 94-04 Clinton Krime Bill, new semi-auto shotguns could not have a mag greater than 5 rounds, and a folding stock or pistol grip, but that's all done with. I know of no current restrictions on shotgun modifications other than 18" minimum barrel.

But I don't know it all
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out

General education should not be mere training of the hands to work, but training of the mind to properly reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classed.php
madman47-12
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Posted: 5/30/2007 1:15:58 PM
so if you have a saiga-12 with the collapseable stock and 10rnd mag how many parts is that
MRW
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Posted: 6/4/2007 10:11:14 AM
all of them? I'm not sure I understand the question. It would seem that all of those parts are imported, and I'm not sure of the parts count issue with regards to shotguns, if they are any different from rifles.
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out

General education should not be mere training of the hands to work, but training of the mind to properly reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classed.php
zzdroptop
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Posted: 6/6/2007 10:47:53 AM

Originally Posted By MRW:
all of them? I'm not sure I understand the question. It would seem that all of those parts are imported, and I'm not sure of the parts count issue with regards to shotguns, if they are any different from rifles.


A S12 has 13 parts. Rules are the same as for rifles...only 10 of those can be non US if converted .

The only 10rd mag that I know of for the S12 is a US made mag(3parts) . If you add parts such as a PG and stock just keep them US made and you will be ok with a US made made mag...that said I would recommend doing a full conversion where you move the trigger and PG forward and change out the trigger group to a US group so you can use the russian mags as well.
CrazyWhiteGuy
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Posted: 8/17/2008 7:13:38 AM
So im confused a little bit. What consitutes modding the saiga shotty? I cut the barrle down to 18 1/4" I cut down and filled the rifle stock into a canted grip, is it still kosher for me to use US mags? I have not replaced any parts of the Saiga 12..
Sgt911
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Posted: 9/3/2008 9:42:59 AM
[Last Edit: 9/3/2008 10:00:56 AM by Sgt911]
The problem with a Saiga is you cant just go by the 1989 import ban, you must then add the 1998 Clinton executive order that banned all semi-automatics from being imported with the ability to accept high capacity magazines. If you add a high-cap mag (10+ for a rifle, 5+ for a shotgun) to a stock Saiga, you have just converted it into a configuration that is non-importable. That is why you just cant just stick a stock AK mag into a stock Saiga, or have to modify the mag well of a WASR. Even if you add a Surefire magazine, you still have to change one other part on a stock Saiga rifle The original 1989 ban did not specify mag capacity, it just said you couldn't have more than two evil features, that's why Maadis' and a couple others were still allowed to be imported during the AWB. Maadis' were imported with a 10rnd mag between 1994-1998. You could then use a pre 1994 high cap mag in a Maadi. Clinton basically, by executive order in 1998, amended the 1989 ban.

Note: if you add a high-cap mag and get the imports parts count to 10 or less, you can then do what ever your state will allow. I guess that would be an American made mag + one part for a stock rifle, and just an American made mag for a shotgun if the shotgun only has 13 import parts to begin with.
rundm
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Posted: 9/7/2008 9:36:38 PM
ok what are the benefits of moving the trigger guard and pistol grip forward on a saiga 12 when adding a folding or collapsible stock. Nowadays you can get a one piece stock and pistol grip that is easy to add to the saiga. Is the pg and trigger guard conversion worth it? thanks, RG
DJAteOhAte
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Posted: 1/7/2009 8:03:49 AM
Quick compliance verification checklist for Saiga conversions:

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance

evlblkwpnz
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Posted: 2/20/2010 10:52:16 AM
Disclaimer: I do not work for Tactical Machining, Daniel Defense, Centurion Arms, Noveske, Colt, VLTOR, AO Precision, Magpul, Giessele, Troy, Eotech, Harris, YHM, BCM, Stag, Sharp's, Lothar Walther, LMT, Tapco, or Walmart. Got all that, Sherlock?
JakeATW
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Posted: 2/23/2010 12:21:28 AM
OK the conversion is easy and the parts are available. My thought is, for just a couple hundred dollars, I can get an Arsenal and its properly riveted, re-finished, tuned, tested and has a warranty. Don't get me wrong, the couple hundred you save is ammo money. I'm just saying, I'd rather have a nicer looking rifle than one that looks like a gun plumber special.

I'm going to buy or build an AK 74 soon.
hunto
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Posted: 3/29/2010 11:48:36 AM
Originally Posted By Sgt911:
The problem with a Saiga is you cant just go by the 1989 import ban, you must then add the 1998 Clinton executive order that banned all semi-automatics from being imported with the ability to accept high capacity magazines. If you add a high-cap mag (10+ for a rifle, 5+ for a shotgun) to a stock Saiga, you have just converted it into a configuration that is non-importable. That is why you just cant just stick a stock AK mag into a stock Saiga, or have to modify the mag well of a WASR. Even if you add a Surefire magazine, you still have to change one other part on a stock Saiga rifle The original 1989 ban did not specify mag capacity, it just said you couldn't have more than two evil features, that's why Maadis' and a couple others were still allowed to be imported during the AWB. Maadis' were imported with a 10rnd mag between 1994-1998. You could then use a pre 1994 high cap mag in a Maadi. Clinton basically, by executive order in 1998, amended the 1989 ban.

Note: if you add a high-cap mag and get the imports parts count to 10 or less, you can then do what ever your state will allow. I guess that would be an American made mag + one part for a stock rifle, and just an American made mag for a shotgun if the shotgun only has 13 import parts to begin with.


So, just so I get this straight and don't become a federal criminal, all I really need to do is change, say, the stock over to a Tapco, and I can run 30-rd mags legally? I mean I really doubt a Fed is waiting at my local range to check weapons, but it'd SUCK to lose my Saiga over a dumb magazine, or $40 for a Tapco Buttstock.
Dave_A
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Posted: 4/26/2010 7:43:55 PM
[Last Edit: 4/26/2010 7:47:45 PM by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By hunto:

So, just so I get this straight and don't become a federal criminal, all I really need to do is change, say, the stock over to a Tapco, and I can run 30-rd mags legally? I mean I really doubt a Fed is waiting at my local range to check weapons, but it'd SUCK to lose my Saiga over a dumb magazine, or $40 for a Tapco Buttstock.

So long as you only run US-made mags (and essentially ALL of the high-caps are US-made)....

And you ONLY use US-made conversion parts (Tapco's stocks and PGs are US-made. As are the 'G2' and Red Star Arms fire-control parts)...

You are G2G.

HOWEVER, the above RUSSIAN conversion-stock (folder) is 2 foreign parts, so in order to use THAT, you have to find 2 other parts (besides those in the mag) to replace with US-parts...

So, for example, replacing the gas-piston and the hand-guard - and using US-made mags - would allow you to use the RUSSIAN folding-stock/pistol-grip set.
"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of man will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint."

-Alexander Hamilton

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